If someone says "a thousand years is not a literal thousand years,"

armylngst

Well-known member
Sorry, I missed this one: what does the view of people 1,500 years after Revelation and nearly another thousand since Daniel have to do with anything?

It's right there in Scripture. That's what you have to go by.

A "time, times, and half a time" is 3 1/2 years. 1,2260 days. Forty-two months.

How Scripture defines the time period is the only authoritative definition.


God bless.
I ask you the question that others have asked due to ignorance. Is that number of days correct? I haven't read Daniel in a while, so I don't remember his correct and authorized definition of the weeks. I still believe that 1 week is 7 years, but that is more from that being what I have always believed.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
A day represents a day [unless it is further defined in the context of prophecy as being different] and so on down the fill in the blanks. In Daniel, when Daniels speaks of the 70 weeks, he defined exactly what he meant. That is how we know the one week represented 7 years, as Daniel said so. Note how when prophesying the coming of Christ, the time given was exact, not allegorized.
Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years), simple
mail


Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV


It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV

2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see (70 Literal Future Weeks) or 490 days.

When the (Future) call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off as Armies surrounding Jerusalem, who stop the building.

The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation now starts.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
I ask you the question that others have asked due to ignorance. Is that number of days correct? I haven't read Daniel in a while, so I don't remember his correct and authorized definition of the weeks. I still believe that 1 week is 7 years, but that is more from that being what I have always believed.

Yes, the word translated "weeks" means basically a period of "seven." That it is years in view in Daniel can be determined through an examination of the events that followed. Some scholars have put the end of the 62 weeks as the very day of Christ's Triumphal Entry. Personally, I think we get into a squabbling match when we bicker over minutiae (and I am not saying it isn't important or relevant) and overlook the obvious, lol. I think the timeline of events following the Prophecy can be tweaked to make whatever day you want to seem to be the end of the 69 weeks, just as some tweak certain statements of Scripture to support distinctive doctrines. But if we bring every relevant truth th the table we can gain a better understanding of the timeline altogether.

And it is just my suggestion that we begin with the most obvious when we are debating or seeking to support a position. In this case, we look at "the prince that shall come" and make a determination who he is. Some say he is the Christ, some say he is the antichrist. If one determines He is antichrist (and I have through my own studies) then we look at everything we have concerning antichrist and that takes us to Revelation. We can see the correlations between the time periods given in Revelation and the time period of Daniel 9 and Daniel 12. Because it is not just "a time, times, and half a time" given, but days and months as well, we can better lock down what the time period is.


God bless.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Sorry, I missed this one: what does the view of people 1,500 years after Revelation and nearly another thousand since Daniel have to do with anything?

My question concerned your knowledge of history...

Are you aware that the most common Protestant view 80 years ago was that "a time, and times, and half a time" equals 1,260 YEARS (not days)?
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
My question concerned your knowledge of history...

Are you aware that the most common Protestant view 80 years ago was that "a time, and times, and half a time" equals 1,260 YEARS (not days)?

My question concerned your knowledge of Scripture.

Are you aware that the Protestant view meant nothing when it was written?

And still doesn't?

;)


God bless.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Are you aware that the Protestant view meant nothing when it was written?

And still doesn't?

You say the PROTESTANT view means nothing.

What do you think of the CATHOLIC view below...

The Antichrist, a single individual, would:

Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem
Abolish the Christian religion
Deny Jesus Christ
Destroy Rome
Be received by the Jews
Pretend to be God
Kill the two witnesses of God
Conquer the world.
To accomplish this, Ribera understood the 1260 days and 42 months and 3½ times of prophecy literally, rejecting an interpretation as 1260 years.

Source: Francisco Ribera
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
You say the PROTESTANT view means nothing.

What do you think of the CATHOLIC view below...

The Antichrist, a single individual, would:

Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem
Abolish the Christian religion
Deny Jesus Christ
Destroy Rome
Be received by the Jews
Pretend to be God
Kill the two witnesses of God
Conquer the world.
To accomplish this, Ribera understood the 1260 days and 42 months and 3½ times of prophecy literally, rejecting an interpretation as 1260 years.

Source: Francisco Ribera

The catholic view is equally irrelevant.

Only what Scripture states is relevant.

Most Catholics these can barely be distinguished from their Protestant counterparts that are truly Reformed in their theology. It’s idealism, not interpretation that can be supported by Scripture.

Just because someone claims to be part of a system doesn’t mean they actually understand that system.

Lastly, there is no 1,260 year period mentioned in Scripture.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
Yes, the word translated "weeks" means basically a period of "seven." That it is years in view in Daniel can be determined through an examination of the events that followed. Some scholars have put the end of the 62 weeks as the very day of Christ's Triumphal Entry. Personally, I think we get into a squabbling match when we bicker over minutiae (and I am not saying it isn't important or relevant) and overlook the obvious, lol. I think the timeline of events following the Prophecy can be tweaked to make whatever day you want to seem to be the end of the 69 weeks, just as some tweak certain statements of Scripture to support distinctive doctrines. But if we bring every relevant truth th the table we can gain a better understanding of the timeline altogether.

And it is just my suggestion that we begin with the most obvious when we are debating or seeking to support a position. In this case, we look at "the prince that shall come" and make a determination who he is. Some say he is the Christ, some say he is the antichrist. If one determines He is antichrist (and I have through my own studies) then we look at everything we have concerning antichrist and that takes us to Revelation. We can see the correlations between the time periods given in Revelation and the time period of Daniel 9 and Daniel 12. Because it is not just "a time, times, and half a time" given, but days and months as well, we can better lock down what the time period is.


God bless.
Daniel's 70 weeks are 490 literal future days, just as post #22 above clearly explains
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Yes, the word translated "weeks" means basically a period of "seven." That it is years in view in Daniel can be determined through an examination of the events that followed. Some scholars have put the end of the 62 weeks as the very day of Christ's Triumphal Entry. Personally, I think we get into a squabbling match when we bicker over minutiae (and I am not saying it isn't important or relevant) and overlook the obvious, lol. I think the timeline of events following the Prophecy can be tweaked to make whatever day you want to seem to be the end of the 69 weeks, just as some tweak certain statements of Scripture to support distinctive doctrines. But if we bring every relevant truth th the table we can gain a better understanding of the timeline altogether.

And it is just my suggestion that we begin with the most obvious when we are debating or seeking to support a position. In this case, we look at "the prince that shall come" and make a determination who he is. Some say he is the Christ, some say he is the antichrist. If one determines He is antichrist (and I have through my own studies) then we look at everything we have concerning antichrist and that takes us to Revelation. We can see the correlations between the time periods given in Revelation and the time period of Daniel 9 and Daniel 12. Because it is not just "a time, times, and half a time" given, but days and months as well, we can better lock down what the time period is.


God bless.
I do believe in the break at the end of week 69. and that it is seven years. This has apparently been mentioned going far back into church history. However, for instance, with a rapture. The closest the church fathers ever got to that is 3 1/2 years before the end, so not pre-trib. Depending on how one divides the Tribulation, it makes sense. It isn't until the last part of the tribulation that God pours out His wrath on the earth. To be more precise, on the kingdom of the beast and his image. Oh, and I read something that is kind of funny, but could serve prophecy. There is a google engineer who believes that the google AI system has gained sentience. He basically said it is a seven year old with knowledge of physics. (They trained it by running everything through it, so trillions of variations of words and ideas for who knows how many years. It would be an artificial sentience, yet another attempt for man to try to be gods in their own mind.)
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
I do believe in the break at the end of week 69. and that it is seven years. This has apparently been mentioned going far back into church history. However, for instance, with a rapture. The closest the church fathers ever got to that is 3 1/2 years before the end, so not pre-trib. Depending on how one divides the Tribulation, it makes sense. It isn't until the last part of the tribulation that God pours out His wrath on the earth. To be more precise, on the kingdom of the beast and his image. Oh, and I read something that is kind of funny, but could serve prophecy. There is a google engineer who believes that the google AI system has gained sentience. He basically said it is a seven year old with knowledge of physics. (They trained it by running everything through it, so trillions of variations of words and ideas for who knows how many years. It would be an artificial sentience, yet another attempt for man to try to be gods in their own mind.)

The break is not open to discussion, it is there. Christ is cut off at the 69th Week, and what we are told about the Seventieth Week is that Antichrist will "confirm" or strengthen "the Covenant" for one Week. The only relevant Covenant to Daniel's People is the Covenant of Law.

It is a full seven-year period, and that is not open to debate either, because Antichrist will strengthen the Covenant for that period and break his part in the midst, or middle of a seven-year period.

The Seals unleash the first judgments, and it is these judgments that will give Antichrist opportunity to step in and be the "I have the solution" guy. THe lost world will buy into it and this takes place in the first half. It is at the middle of the Tribulation that he stands in the temple proclaiming himself god.

AI may be used, lol, but Antichrist will be a man among men. I think he will be a political figure very much like Obama, and will be loved by the entire world. The world rejoiced when Obama was elected, because they thought he would be the one to bring in the new world order. THat is, global government.

I have often thought that the "death blow" Antichrist recovers from could very well be a political death, such as an ended Presidency. I have never seen anyone that fit the profile better than Obama. If he were to come to power again I would be packing my bags, so to speak, because the Pre-Tribulation Rapture would be at any moment.


God bless.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
It is a full seven-year period, and that is not open to debate either, because Antichrist will strengthen the Covenant for that period and break his part in the midst, or middle of a seven-year period.

Since you say the Antichrist makes this covenant with the JEWS for seven years...

Is the “full seven-year period” equal to seven years on the JEWISH calendar?

In other words, is it based on a lunisolar calendar where a year averages 365 days.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
Since you say the Antichrist makes this covenant with the JEWS for seven years...

Is the “full seven-year period” equal to seven years on the JEWISH calendar?

In other words, is it based on a lunisolar calendar where a year averages 365 days.

It will be a 360-day year that it is based on. That is what the Prophecy is given in. However, we see also a time, times, and half a time given, as well as forty-two months, so if it a matter that you think the Prophecy will not fit with the current calendar I do not see that as an issue at all.

The specific days given in Daniel 12 make the 360-day calendar the relevant measure, in my view.


God bless.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
The break is not open to discussion, it is there. Christ is cut off at the 69th Week, and what we are told about the Seventieth Week is that Antichrist will "confirm" or strengthen "the Covenant" for one Week. The only relevant Covenant to Daniel's People is the Covenant of Law.

It is a full seven-year period, and that is not open to debate either, because Antichrist will strengthen the Covenant for that period and break his part in the midst, or middle of a seven-year period.

The Seals unleash the first judgments, and it is these judgments that will give Antichrist opportunity to step in and be the "I have the solution" guy. THe lost world will buy into it and this takes place in the first half. It is at the middle of the Tribulation that he stands in the temple proclaiming himself god.

AI may be used, lol, but Antichrist will be a man among men. I think he will be a political figure very much like Obama, and will be loved by the entire world. The world rejoiced when Obama was elected, because they thought he would be the one to bring in the new world order. THat is, global government.

I have often thought that the "death blow" Antichrist recovers from could very well be a political death, such as an ended Presidency. I have never seen anyone that fit the profile better than Obama. If he were to come to power again I would be packing my bags, so to speak, because the Pre-Tribulation Rapture would be at any moment.


God bless.
What I meant to ask, perhaps elsewhere...I lost track, is are we sure it is a seven-year period as we understand seven years? I have not studied it, but someone mentioned that calendars of Daniel's day, and today aren't the same. That is all I am asking. I am not denying anything, just asking if there is a slightly different time scale in play. (Old calendar verses what we have.)

As for the "death blow" the Antichrist recovered from, I always thought it to be an actual attempt to assassinate, and the devil, who can resurrect anyone, possesses and heals the antichrist, and at that point it is Satan in control. So the antichrist may not see themselves as the antichrist before he is actually "revealed", which, without looking anything up at this time, I would say is the point where the "miracle" (in quotes on purpose) happens, and the world is shocked and awed.

Oh, and for other news, if you haven't seen it (I think I posted it in one other place), a google engineer believes there AI is now sentient, and robots with human skin are on the way. This sounds like a candidate for image of the beast.

The crazy thought that I have is that either there is a pre-trib rapture, and we are/may be on the threshold, or there is a mid-trib rapture, and we have already entered the tribulation. Once again, a crazy thought.
 
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S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
What I meant to ask, perhaps elsewhere...I lost track, is are we sure it is a seven-year period as we understand seven years? I have not studied it, but someone mentioned that calendars of Daniel's day, and today aren't the same. That is all I am asking. I am not denying anything, just asking if there is a slightly different time scale in play. (Old calendar verses what we have.)

As for the "death blow" the Antichrist recovered from, I always thought it to be an actual attempt to assassinate, and the devil, who can resurrect anyone, possesses and heals the antichrist, and at that point it is Satan in control. So the antichrist may not see themselves as the antichrist before he is actually "revealed", which, without looking anything up at this time, I would say is the point where the "miracle" (in quotes on purpose) happens, and the world is shocked and awed.

Oh, and for other news, if you haven't seen it (I think I posted it in one other place), a google engineer believes there AI is now sentient, and robots with human skin are on the way. This sounds like a candidate for image of the beast.

The crazy thought that I have is that either there is a pre-trib rapture, and we are/may be on the threshold, or there is a mid-trib rapture, and we have already entered the tribulation. Once again, a crazy thought.

On the first point: even if the modern calendar is used it is going to be a few days discrepancy at best per year, and that could be viewed as covered by the periods "forty-two months" and "a time, times, and half a time." I don't see that it significantly changes the Seven years. I do (and this is my own view) believe that it will be a 360-day scale because the Prophecy of Daniel 12 is given in specific days. It is interesting that two periods of days are given:


Daniel 12:11-12 King James Version

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



So this would involve the second half, from the time the Abomination of Desolation is set up. That first period, thirty days (Satan being bound immediately upon Christ's Return), is what I view to be the period of gathering for the Sheep and Goat Judgment. The second, forty-five days, is what I view to be the establishing of the Kingdom, where men are given basically their tasks in that Kingdom (i.e., appointments unto rulership, placement of believers, etc.).

It could be speculated that the thirty days might account for the difference between the two calendars. Personally, though, I think that our current calendar is subject to change based on the astrological events that are going to take place. During the Tribulation I think that there may be a shift in the universe. We expect conditions to reverse to Pre-Fall conditions, and one of the things that is likely to happen is a re-establishment of the water canopy that surrounded the earth when it was created. This is a little sad for me, because I love the rain, lol.


On the second point: I think it probably will be a physical death, that makes the most sense. But I do see that figurative language could allow for a political death as well. The reaction of the world (especially that of our enemies) was frightening, to say the least. America has always stood apart from obviously evil countries. To see the President of the United States supporting Muslim countries that hate America and actually going so far to give them monetary support that we knew was going to be used to fund terrorism against the United States was grim.

On the third point: That's very interesting. Elon Musk seems to be very much into that kind of thing. I have heard that there is a push to basically download a computer into the human mind, which would create an intellectual cyborg that I think could very easily be controlled (do what we want or we blow a fuse in your brain and boom! you're lobotomized).

But, consider that when societies break down there is usually a reversion to very basic technology. The death toll alone in the first 3 1/2 years will have consequences we cannot really imagine. I think this image may be "marvelous" in the eyes of those under strong delusion because it isn't technologically advanced and that will be the marvel of the thing.

Last point: I see the Mid-Trib view as better than a post-trib view, but it still has its problems. Only the Pre-Trib view allows for Prophecy to unfold as it always has, to the jot and tittle.


God bless.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
On the first point: even if the modern calendar is used it is going to be a few days discrepancy at best per year, and that could be viewed as covered by the periods "forty-two months" and "a time, times, and half a time." I don't see that it significantly changes the Seven years. I do (and this is my own view) believe that it will be a 360-day scale because the Prophecy of Daniel 12 is given in specific days. It is interesting that two periods of days are given:


Daniel 12:11-12 King James Version

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



So this would involve the second half, from the time the Abomination of Desolation is set up. That first period, thirty days (Satan being bound immediately upon Christ's Return), is what I view to be the period of gathering for the Sheep and Goat Judgment. The second, forty-five days, is what I view to be the establishing of the Kingdom, where men are given basically their tasks in that Kingdom (i.e., appointments unto rulership, placement of believers, etc.).

It could be speculated that the thirty days might account for the difference between the two calendars. Personally, though, I think that our current calendar is subject to change based on the astrological events that are going to take place. During the Tribulation I think that there may be a shift in the universe. We expect conditions to reverse to Pre-Fall conditions, and one of the things that is likely to happen is a re-establishment of the water canopy that surrounded the earth when it was created. This is a little sad for me, because I love the rain, lol.


On the second point: I think it probably will be a physical death, that makes the most sense. But I do see that figurative language could allow for a political death as well. The reaction of the world (especially that of our enemies) was frightening, to say the least. America has always stood apart from obviously evil countries. To see the President of the United States supporting Muslim countries that hate America and actually going so far to give them monetary support that we knew was going to be used to fund terrorism against the United States was grim.
I think it appears to be a physical death, since Satan does not have the ability to resurrect anyone. (on the point of possibly being physical death.) Satan will stop the death/heal the person, somehow rejuvenate a corpse, and will possess the anitchrist. I believe it will still be the man, empowered/controlled by Satan, so I believe it will only be a blow that brings the person close to death, but does not kill them. Once again, simply because Satan does not have the power to resurrect.
On the third point: That's very interesting. Elon Musk seems to be very much into that kind of thing. I have heard that there is a push to basically download a computer into the human mind, which would create an intellectual cyborg that I think could very easily be controlled (do what we want or we blow a fuse in your brain and boom! you're lobotomized).

But, consider that when societies break down there is usually a reversion to very basic technology. The death toll alone in the first 3 1/2 years will have consequences we cannot really imagine. I think this image may be "marvelous" in the eyes of those under strong delusion because it isn't technologically advanced and that will be the marvel of the thing.

Last point: I see the Mid-Trib view as better than a post-trib view, but it still has its problems. Only the Pre-Trib view allows for Prophecy to unfold as it always has, to the jot and tittle.
We had a speaker who talked about it, who said that there is no issue with pre trib or mid trib, however post trib is a problem. There is plenty of time for the things going on in heaven to happen in either 7 years or 3 1/2 years, however post trib gets you the marriage sack lunch of the lamb. I consider the plagues of Egypt when considering mid trib, because God did not separate Israel from Egypt until about half way through. The beginning of the tribulation is only persecution, and natural disasters, God using nature to punish humanity. (You can actually see some of that now, but it may just be normal). It is during the 3 1/2 years that God directly punishes humanity by pouring out His wrath on the kingdom of the beast and his image. All this is is reasoning that supports the possibility of a mid trib rapture. This was actually the majority view of the church fathers, when they spoke of millennialism. (I had done some research on the subject.) There is no reason to believe that God is going to keep us from persecution, as the church was born of persecution. However, we can be certain that God will not visit His wrath on the church.

Where I stand is pretrib, with a possible midtrib instead. I have just become more accepting of the possibility that it is midtrib.
God bless.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
I think it appears to be a physical death, since Satan does not have the ability to resurrect anyone. (on the point of possibly being physical death.) Satan will stop the death/heal the person, somehow rejuvenate a corpse, and will possess the anitchrist. I believe it will still be the man, empowered/controlled by Satan, so I believe it will only be a blow that brings the person close to death, but does not kill them. Once again, simply because Satan does not have the power to resurrect.

We had a speaker who talked about it, who said that there is no issue with pre trib or mid trib, however post trib is a problem. There is plenty of time for the things going on in heaven to happen in either 7 years or 3 1/2 years, however post trib gets you the marriage sack lunch of the lamb. I consider the plagues of Egypt when considering mid trib, because God did not separate Israel from Egypt until about half way through. The beginning of the tribulation is only persecution, and natural disasters, God using nature to punish humanity. (You can actually see some of that now, but it may just be normal). It is during the 3 1/2 years that God directly punishes humanity by pouring out His wrath on the kingdom of the beast and his image. All this is is reasoning that supports the possibility of a mid trib rapture. This was actually the majority view of the church fathers, when they spoke of millennialism. (I had done some research on the subject.) There is no reason to believe that God is going to keep us from persecution, as the church was born of persecution. However, we can be certain that God will not visit His wrath on the church.

Where I stand is pretrib, with a possible midtrib instead. I have just become more accepting of the possibility that it is midtrib.
Post-Trib,the Church will be present on earth to witness the final hours of the tribulation and literal second coming, "When These Things Begin To Come To Pass, Lift Up Your Heads"

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
I think it appears to be a physical death, since Satan does not have the ability to resurrect anyone. (on the point of possibly being physical death.) Satan will stop the death/heal the person, somehow rejuvenate a corpse, and will possess the anitchrist. I believe it will still be the man, empowered/controlled by Satan, so I believe it will only be a blow that brings the person close to death, but does not kill them. Once again, simply because Satan does not have the power to resurrect.

We had a speaker who talked about it, who said that there is no issue with pre trib or mid trib, however post trib is a problem. There is plenty of time for the things going on in heaven to happen in either 7 years or 3 1/2 years, however post trib gets you the marriage sack lunch of the lamb. I consider the plagues of Egypt when considering mid trib, because God did not separate Israel from Egypt until about half way through. The beginning of the tribulation is only persecution, and natural disasters, God using nature to punish humanity. (You can actually see some of that now, but it may just be normal). It is during the 3 1/2 years that God directly punishes humanity by pouring out His wrath on the kingdom of the beast and his image. All this is is reasoning that supports the possibility of a mid trib rapture. This was actually the majority view of the church fathers, when they spoke of millennialism. (I had done some research on the subject.) There is no reason to believe that God is going to keep us from persecution, as the church was born of persecution. However, we can be certain that God will not visit His wrath on the church.

Where I stand is pretrib, with a possible midtrib instead. I have just become more accepting of the possibility that it is midtrib.
The Two Witnesses Will Dominate The Entire Tribulation, Something Many Disregard As Non-Existent

Try Reading Exodus And The Plagues Upon Pharaoh And Egypt, It's Going To Be A Complete Replay

God's Divine Protection, "Open Your Ears"

(Revelation) 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

God's Divine Protection During The Final Hour Of Earth's Temptation, Just Like The Passover In Egypt, "Open Your Ears"

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
The Two Witnesses Will Dominate The Entire Tribulation, Something Many Disregard As Non-Existent
Who are the two witnesses? I am very sure that it will be Enoch, and Esau, two who have not faced the whole it is appointed man once to die, and then the judgement. These two have never died. It fits like a glove.
Try Reading Exodus And The Plagues Upon Pharaoh And Egypt, It's Going To Be A Complete Replay
This is why the rapture is a thing. Egypt was the location, but Goshen was separated from Egypt half way through the plagues (approximately). However, the Great Tribulation is not going to be a city, or a country, but the whole world. There is only one way to separate the church from the world, according to Paul, which is for the church to leave the world.
God's Divine Protection, "Open Your Ears"

(Revelation) 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

God's Divine Protection During The Final Hour Of Earth's Temptation, Just Like The Passover In Egypt, "Open Your Ears"

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived
The church is not going to be there. Just as Goshen was separated from Egypt, so the church will be separated from the world.
There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30
You failed to understand what Paul is saying in Ephesians. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance until we take possession of it. In other words, we are sealed as belonging to God, and not to the world/Satan. This is why some (many?) Christians believe that believers cannot be possessed by demons. We are God's possession, filled by the Holy Spirit. Demons cannot take God's possession from Him, by possessing believers. This is also given as a reason why, when researching Alien abductions, there is not a SINGLE record of a born again believer being abducted, or visited. There are records of people who, in the process of being abduction, cried out to Jesus, and it ended at that moment.
Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
You are forcing this onto Revelation. The only sealed on Earth during the tribulation are the 144,000, who are marked in Revelation. Their purpose is to go out preaching the gospel to those who are still on Earth. They are protected because they have God's mark on their forehead. (It is already different already.) They also preach destruction on the kingdom of the beast and his image.
It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
So only the 144000 will not be affected.
Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Which is why it may not be a pretrib rapture, but a midtrib rapture, as Goshen was not separated from Egypt until half way through the plagues.
Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Don't allegorize prophecy. Jesus first coming was literally prophesied, and rather exactly. God has not changed, so there is no reason not to believe that Jesus second coming is prophesied literally as well. This is why church fathers and others say, if you take the second coming prophecies literally, premillennialism is all that is left.
 
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