If The Reformation Never Happened . . .

BJ Bear

Well-known member
And is that free gift given to babies?
All means all in Romans 3:23-25.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—" -EHV

The second "all" is supplied by the translator because the subject hasn't changed.
 

Johan

Well-known member
Justification then is God's grace moving us from unjust to perfectly just, opening Himself to us in Truth and Honor.
Justification does not make us just—it declares us just, despite being ungodly (Rom. 4:5). Simul justus et peccator.
"For through the law comes knowledge of sin" [Romans 3:20]. When justified however keeping the law is no longer a work of keeping, rather a work of love.
No one is keeping the law perfectly. You "forgot" to include the first part of that verse.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
 

JoeT

Active member
what does that mean as used in scripture?
All means all in Romans 3:23-25.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—" -EHV

The second "all" is supplied by the translator because the subject hasn't changed.
Does ALL include Christ? Christ is human, and a first century Jew uniquely and inseparably joined to Divinity. Did Christ fall short of the glory of God? Did He sin? And, if He didn't sin did He use magic or His divinity to separate His humanity from the "sin nature of man" (sin nature is the Protestant paradigm not mine)?

JoeT
 

mica

Well-known member
mica said:
what does that mean as used in scripture?
Does ALL include Christ? Christ is human, and a first century Jew uniquely and inseparably joined to Divinity. Did Christ fall short of the glory of God? Did He sin? And, if He didn't sin did He use magic or His divinity to separate His humanity from the "sin nature of man" (sin nature is the Protestant paradigm not mine)?

JoeT
my post was not about the word 'all'.
 

JoeT

Active member
Justification does not make us just—it declares us just, despite being ungodly (Rom. 4:5). Simul justus et peccator.

No one is keeping the law perfectly. You "forgot" to include the first part of that verse.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
The state of being 'just' is itself the declaration you seek. It either is or isn't just. Sin isn't just, consequently Luther can proclaim Simul Justus Et Peccator till the cows come home, but holiness and sin remain like water an oil, they separate - holiness is sanctification and justification. The process of justification then is an emulgent to an emulsion, separating the pure waters of life from the staining oils of sin.

Unlike the Protestant paradigm we are not keeping 'law' perfectly, rather we are keeping charity to perfection. Should we fail to some small detail then those in the Church Militant will have an emulgent applied in purgatory. Those outside the Church will need to convince God that the staining oils within the emulsion of good and evil will not contaminate heaven - by the way, good luck with that.


JoeT
 

Johan

Well-known member
Does ALL include Christ? Christ is human, and a first century Jew uniquely and inseparably joined to Divinity. Did Christ fall short of the glory of God? Did He sin? And, if He didn't sin did He use magic or His divinity to separate His humanity from the "sin nature of man" (sin nature is the Protestant paradigm not mine)?
Well, Jesus was made sin for our sake (2 Cor. 5:21). He is our substitute who took our sins upon Himself and carried them onto the cross. It could even be argued that He died the death of a sinner, although He had never sinned. However, in soteriological matters, Paul makes a sharp distinction between our sinless Savior and fallen mankind, the object of His salvation.

For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. (Rom. 3:9–12)

So much for your secular humanist "mankind is not that evil" nonsense.
 

JoeT

Active member
Justification does not make us just—it declares us just, despite being ungodly (Rom. 4:5). Simul justus et peccator.

No one is keeping the law perfectly. You "forgot" to include the first part of that verse.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
The state of being 'just' is itself the declaration you seek. It either is or isn't just. Sin isn't just, consequently Luther can proclaim Simul Justus Et Peccator till the cows come home, but holiness and sin remain like water an oil, they separate - holiness is sanctification and justification. The process of justification then is an emulgent to an emulsion, separating the pure waters of life from the staining oils of sin.

We are not keeping 'law' perfectly, rather we are keeping charity to perfection. Should we fail then those in the Church Militant will have an emulgent applied in purgatory. Those outside the Church will need to convince God that the staining oils within the mixture of good and evil will not contaminate heaven - by the way, good luck.


JoeT
 

Johan

Well-known member
The state of being 'just' is itself the declaration you seek. It either is or isn't just. Sin isn't just, consequently Luther can proclaim Simul Justus Et Peccator till the cows come home, but holiness and sin remain like water an oil, they separate - holiness is sanctification and justification. The process of justification then is an emulgent to an emulsion, separating the pure waters of life from the staining oils of sin.
Sin isn't just, I agree. But God, who declares ungodly sinners righteous by faith, is just.
Unlike the Protestant paradigm we are not keeping 'law' perfectly, rather we are keeping charity to perfection.
Sinners do not keep charity to perfection. And whether you appreciate to hear it or not, you are a sinner. You still stumble in many ways (Jas. 3:2).
Should we fail to some small detail then those in the Church Militant will have an emulgent applied in purgatory.
"Fail to some small detail"? You are a sinner through and through who will fail in every detail. If it were not for the grace of God, as manifested by the crucifixion of His Son, you would not be able to stand before Him.
Those outside the Church will need to convince God that the staining oils within the emulsion of good and evil will not contaminate heaven - by the way, good luck with that.
The blood of Christ purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Every statement to the contrary is a lie from the pits of hell.
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
The state of being 'just' is itself the declaration you seek. It either is or isn't just. Sin isn't just, consequently Luther can proclaim Simul Justus Et Peccator till the cows come home, but holiness and sin remain like water an oil, they separate - holiness is sanctification and justification. The process of justification then is an emulgent to an emulsion, separating the pure waters of life from the staining oils of sin.

Unlike the Protestant paradigm we are not keeping 'law' perfectly, rather we are keeping charity to perfection. Should we fail to some small detail then those in the Church Militant will have an emulgent applied in purgatory. Those outside the Church will need to convince God that the staining oils within the emulsion of good and evil will not contaminate heaven - by the way, good luck with that.


JoeT
Those outside your church are those saved by grace through faith. Its the saved that have an advocate in Jesus;

1 John 2:1

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; NASB

We also have His righteousness;

2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. NASB

And for the 90th time, God prepares us for heaven, not you going through purgatory which doesn't exist;

Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
NASB

In catholicism its always; me me me. In true christianity its God God God. Stop patting yourself on the back for atoning for your own sin and give God the glory for once.

Your arrogant ecclesiology will come crashing down on you one day. Repent and receive Jesus and be born again.
 

JoeT

Active member
Well, Jesus was made sin for our sake (2 Cor. 5:21). He is our substitute who took our sins upon Himself and carried them onto the cross. It could even be argued that He died the death of a sinner, although He had never sinned. However, in soteriological matters, Paul makes a sharp distinction between our sinless Savior and fallen mankind, the object of His salvation.

For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. (Rom. 3:9–12)

So much for your secular humanist "mankind is not that evil" nonsense.
This is a good example why St. Peter warns not to make 'private interpretations' [Cf. 2 Peter 1:20]. How does God sin? How is God made into sin? It's ludicrous suggest it.

Christ was not made 'sin' in the sense that He was infected with the acts of sin. Rather "He made Him a sacrifice for sin: even as it is written (Hosea 4:8): "They shall eat the sins of My people"—they, i.e. the priests, who by the law ate the sacrifices offered for sin. And in that way it is written (Isaiah 53:6) that "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (i.e. He gave Him up to be a victim for the sins of all men); or "He made Him sin" (i.e. made Him to have "the likeness of sinful flesh"), as is written (Romans 8:3), and this on account of the passible and mortal body He assumed."

JoeT
 

JoeT

Active member
Sin isn't just, I agree. But God, who declares ungodly sinners righteous by faith, is just.
Really? God declares what is evil to be a state of good? I suggest that the soul that is just is in a state of justice and honor.
Sinners do not keep charity to perfection. And whether you appreciate to hear it or not, you are a sinner. You still stumble in many ways (Jas. 3:2).
Christ commands the Christian, "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." [Matthew 5:48; Cf. Matthew 19:21, Luke 6:40, James 1:4]. What is perfection? "That which is lacking nothing." We are commanded to lack nothing in faith, hope, and charity.
"Fail to some small detail"? You are a sinner through and through who will fail in every detail. If it were not for the grace of God, as manifested by the crucifixion of His Son, you would not be able to stand before Him.

The blood of Christ purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Every statement to the contrary is a lie from the pits of hell.
The blood of Christ does indeed purify, we abide in that which lacks nothing. But, the Protestant paradigm doesn't imbibe in perfection, does it. How does this work, the unjust become just, perfectly, while symbolizing imbibing the emulgent separating purity from sin. If the Blood never falls on or in how then does it purify, symbolically?

JoeT
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
This is a good example why St. Peter warns not to make 'private interpretations' [Cf. 2 Peter 1:20]. How does God sin? How is God made into sin? It's ludicrous suggest it.

Christ was not made 'sin' in the sense that He was infected with the acts of sin. Rather "He made Him a sacrifice for sin: even as it is written (Hosea 4:8): "They shall eat the sins of My people"—they, i.e. the priests, who by the law ate the sacrifices offered for sin. And in that way it is written (Isaiah 53:6) that "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (i.e. He gave Him up to be a victim for the sins of all men); or "He made Him sin" (i.e. made Him to have "the likeness of sinful flesh"), as is written (Romans 8:3), and this on account of the passible and mortal body He assumed."

JoeT
Where exactly does Peter say not to make private interpretations?

2 Peter 1:20-2:3
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. NASB

And

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. NASB

He never says 'don't interpret the bible.' Thats your strawman. First, hes speaking of prophecy, not merely reading and interpreting scripture.

Secondly, as the letter goes on it speaks specifically about false prophets who introduce destructive heresies. Thats the rcc in spades! Also in 2 Peter we have him talking about the unstable and unlearned twisting Gods word. So there is no mandate to NOT interpret Gods word. The caution is against those;
False prophets
False teachers
Those who are greedy
Those who exploit
Those who are untaught
Those who are unstable

Lastly, we are told we can read Gods word approvingly and accurately handle His word.

2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
NASB

Might wanna go back and re-read those verses you loosely cited.
 

JoeT

Active member
Where exactly does Peter say not to make private interpretations?

2 Peter 1:20-2:3
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. NASB

And

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. NASB

He never says 'don't interpret the bible.' Thats your strawman. First, hes speaking of prophecy, not merely reading and interpreting scripture.

Secondly, as the letter goes on it speaks specifically about false prophets who introduce destructive heresies. Thats the rcc in spades! Also in 2 Peter we have him talking about the unstable and unlearned twisting Gods word. So there is no mandate to NOT interpret Gods word. The caution is against those;
False prophets
False teachers
Those who are greedy
Those who exploit
Those who are untaught
Those who are unstable

Lastly, we are told we can read Gods word approvingly and accurately handle His word.

2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
NASB

Might wanna go back and re-read those verses you loosely cited.
Priests and prophets interpret Scripture, isn't it the Protestant paradigm that all are priests and prophets? Your are prophesying when preaching your the false prophets such as Jim Jones, Martin Luther, and the like?

JoeT

JoeT
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
Priests and prophets interpret Scripture, isn't it the Protestant paradigm that all are priests and prophets? Your are prophesying when preaching your the false prophets such as Jim Jones, Martin Luther, and the like?

JoeT

JoeT
Priests and prophets interpret Scripture, isn't it the Protestant paradigm that all are priests and prophets?

All are of the priesthood of believers. And no, not all are prophets. Where'd you get that one from?

Your are prophesying when preaching your the false prophets such as Jim Jones, Martin Luther, and the like?

Huh?
 
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