If The Reformation Never Happened . . .

Nic

Well-known member
Oh, man. At least my long term memory is sort of working. :)

Thank you for the reply. I was thinking of a years long discussion in which Luther was the most evil guy and responsible for everything conceivably bad in the world and then some.

The discussion was so long ago it might be old enough to drink in all fifty states.
I was drawing from a very old board discussion as you were. I didn't read this thread from the beginning at any means. The expression 'we hate Luther and die club' or some such was brought up a few times around that time.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Luther used the term prophet to refer to himself as a pastor and preacher who proclaimed the gospel. Joe's objection may come down to laying on of hands and / or claim to apostolic succession. The elephant in the room however is that assemblies are granted the right to select their own pastors.
Yes, the ability of a congregation to select pastors and electing bishops was a bone of contention during the Reformation despite there being a long history of such.
 

Tertiumquid

Active member
Oh, man. At least my long term memory is sort of working. :)

Thank you for the reply. I was thinking of a years long discussion in which Luther was the most evil guy and responsible for everything conceivably bad in the world and then some.

The discussion was so long ago it might be old enough to drink in all fifty states.
Oh, OK. That was probably TimMD. Not sure what happened to him. He was really into attacking Luther, even more than defending his own Roman church. Weird.

Edit to add: By analogy for Rome's defenders obsessed with Luther: If your wife falls in love with another guy, it ultimately isn't the fault of the other guy.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: Nic

Nic

Well-known member
Oh, OK. That was probably TimMD. Not sure what happened to him. He was really into attacking Luther, even more than defending his own Roman church. Weird.

Edit to add: By analogy for Rome's defenders obsessed with Luther: If your wife falls in love with another guy, it ultimately isn't the fault of the other guy.
I heard TimMD became a fungelical and was witnessing to Lutherans and Catholics about the damnable heresy of water baptisms. 😉
 

Nic

Well-known member
"Fungelical"? Someone who is a fun evangelical?
I came across that in a few places in referencing fundamentalism & evangelicals. In any event it made me laugh because it came out of nowhere and it seem to take the seriousness out of theology just for a moment. I guess it's because I read fun and not fundamentalism. So yes fun is (imo) a fair rendering.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I came across that in a few places in referencing fundamentalism & evangelicals. In any event it made me laugh because it came out of nowhere and it seem to take the seriousness out of theology just for a moment. I guess it's because I read fun and not fundamentalism. So yes fun is (imo) a fair rendering.
Ah! That makes more sense than a fun evangelical...or an evangelical with a fungal infection...:p
 

Tertiumquid

Active member
Like many here Luther had a pathological hatred for the one True Church of Jesus Christ. Spirits talked to him in the toilet above a cesspool. He wrestled with devils, slung feces to protect himself. He fancied himself the prophet Isaiah. And this is heralded the foundation and founder of the new Christian?

When Doctor Justus Jonas had translated the book of Tobit, he attended Luther therewith, and said: “Many ridiculous things are contained in this book, especially about the three nights, and the liver of the broiled fish, wherewith the devil was scared and driven away.” Whereupon Luther said: ”‘Tis a Jewish conceit; the devil, a fierce and powerful enemy, will not be hunted away in such sort, for he has the spear of Goliah; but God gives him such weapons, that, when he is overcome by the godly, it may be the greater terror and vexation unto him. Daniel and Isaiah are most excellent prophets. I am Isaiah—be it spoken with humility—to the advancement of God’s honor, whose work alone it is, and to spite the devil. Philip Melancthon is Jeremiah; that prophet stood always in fear; even so it is with Melancthon.” Martin Luther (1483-1546), WILLIAM HAZLITT, Esq. (19??-) (Translator), Table Talk, p24​
I had a little time this morning to look into the tedium of this quote.

1. William Hazlitt was not born in the 20th century.

2. This quote is not on page 24 of any edition of the Table Talk. The Table Talk entry number is xxiv. The page number varies depending on edition.

3. This paragraph / quote in the original source is not one paragraph, but is rather isolated Table Talk statements strung together. See WATR 2:410 and also Dr. Martin Luthers' sämmtliche Werke, p. 132 and following. The English (bottom of page 91, then 92-93) follows the same content (top of page 129) of the German.

4. The Table Talk is a collection of second hand comments written down by Luther's friends and students, published after his death. Since Luther didn't write the Table Talk, the statements contained therein are purported to have been made by Luther and should serve more as corroborating second-hand testimony to something Luther is certain to have written.

5. Yes, there were times in which Luther spoke of himself as a biblical prophet, but what was his prophecy? It was not the divine forth-telling the future as "thus saith the Lord," but rather the proclamation of the Word of God, not in the sense of new revelation, but the biblical inscripturated Word of God.

6. The point of the Table talk appears to be nothing more than a comparison of the personalities of Luther and Melanchthon. There is no corroborating evidence that either Luther or Melanchthon considered themselves to be giving forth extra-Biblical new revelation as modern-day incarnations of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Regards, JS
 

dingoling.

Active member
If the Reformation had never happened, would the Roman Catholic Church have "cleaned up it's act," of it's own initiative, or continued to get away with the disturbing picture of it's own moral decline, filth and mass corruption that is all so very prevalent even to this day?
Christ is always in the process of cleaning up his church.
 

Southsider071

Active member
If the Reformation had never happened, would the Roman Catholic Church have "cleaned up it's act," of it's own initiative, or continued to get away with the disturbing picture of it's own moral decline, filth and mass corruption that is all so very prevalent even to this day?

The RCC didn't clean up its act with the Reformation, so why would they have done so without it.


Christians breaking away from the RCC was inevitable in the 16th Century, even if Luther never steps forward. It was an age of increased mobility with the discovery of the New World, and more importantly increased communication with the advent of the printing press. Keeping people away from information was getting increasingly difficult.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I had a little time this morning to look into the tedium of this quote.

1. William Hazlitt was not born in the 20th century.

2. This quote is not on page 24 of any edition of the Table Talk. The Table Talk entry number is xxiv. The page number varies depending on edition.

3. This paragraph / quote in the original source is not one paragraph, but is rather isolated Table Talk statements strung together. See WATR 2:410 and also Dr. Martin Luthers' sämmtliche Werke, p. 132 and following. The English (bottom of page 91, then 92-93) follows the same content (top of page 129) of the German.

4. The Table Talk is a collection of second hand comments written down by Luther's friends and students, published after his death. Since Luther didn't write the Table Talk, the statements contained therein are purported to have been made by Luther and should serve more as corroborating second-hand testimony to something Luther is certain to have written.

5. Yes, there were times in which Luther spoke of himself as a biblical prophet, but what was his prophecy? It was not the divine forth-telling the future as "thus saith the Lord," but rather the proclamation of the Word of God, not in the sense of new revelation, but the biblical inscripturated Word of God.

6. The point of the Table talk appears to be nothing more than a comparison of the personalities of Luther and Melanchthon. There is no corroborating evidence that either Luther or Melanchthon considered themselves to be giving forth extra-Biblical new revelation as modern-day incarnations of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Regards, JS
Ya, good stuff.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The RCC didn't clean up its act with the Reformation, so why would they have done so without it.


Christians breaking away from the RCC was inevitable in the 16th Century, even if Luther never steps forward. It was an age of increased mobility with the discovery of the New World, and more importantly increased communication with the advent of the printing press. Keeping people away from information was getting increasingly difficult.
Some have speculated that the Reformation would not have happened, were it not for the printing press.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
What a pile of nonsense. What you are, in essence, saying is that your faith is so tenuous that you need a hierarchical organization to uphold it. Christ is the truth, and He does not need to be "upheld" by anyone. He died for the sins of His people, and He was raised on the third day. Those are historical facts, in contrast to the make-believe "miracles" (transubstantiation, baptismal regeneration, sanctifying grace, and whatnot) that take place in your fantasy alone.
AMEN! According to Roman Catholic theology, though God is the ultimate source of sanctifying grace. sanctification/ justification "requires the free co-operation of men." Though mysterious, the RCC proclaims, the "mutual co-operation of divine power and human freedom" lies at the heart of Roman Catholic doctrines of grace. Therefore Roman Catholic theology does not flinch in asserting that the grace of God is resistible. Trent declared: "If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by asserting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse it's assent if it wishes, but that as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema. Hence, by this claim alone, the RCC has forever revealed itself as a false teacher, and, with Arminians and Lutherans, has determined that the success of Almighty God's Sovereign plan rests upon the caprice of finite man.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
The problem is we have seen some RCs post that if the RCC is proved false then they would not believe in Jesus or God. I mean God has nothing to do with their institution. The head of believers is Jesus not a man.
And another problem is that contrary to Protestant theology which maintains that God's Spirit may effect salvation apart from intermediaries, read how Roman Catholic theology teaches that God has chosen to dispense His grace only through the instrumentality of the [Roman Catholic] Church: "While Christ acquired the fruits of Redemption by His own efficacy, mankind. . . . The [Roman Catholic] Church is Christ's, continuing and perpetually working on earth." Thus, "through the Apostles - - and, since it was to be until the world should end, through their successors - - we were to find the truth, the life, the union by which we shall be saved."

Sheed, Theology. pg. 51
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Yes, the ability of a congregation to select pastors and electing bishops was a bone of contention during the Reformation despite there being a long history of such.
The word "congregation" evokes in the minds of most American something democratic in nature, a group of people who meet together as members of some organization to decide something on their own authority. But the 12 Congregations which surround the RCC pope in the government of the Roman Church are not congregations in that sense. They are not committees of RC people chosen by the member of the local churches in various nations. They are appointed committees of appointed cardinals, with a few minor prelates and advisers who are also appointed by the Pope directly or indirectly. They make important decisions but those decisions are subject to approval by the Pope and not by the Roman Catholic people. The Congregations are entirely clerical and unanimously male,. They are in effect, departments of the central government of the Church of Rome, and they form a great network of ecclesiastical power which reaches to every corner of the world.
 
Last edited:

Theo1689

Well-known member
The word "congregation" evokes in the minds of most American something democratic in nature, a group of people who meet together as members of some organization to decide something on their own authority.

I've been a Christian for 30 years, and I've NEVER had that understanding.
Are you sure you accurately speak for "most American[s ]"?

To me, it simply means a group of people gathering "together" ("con").
Where do you get the "deciding" business from?

Merriam-Webster defines it as, "an assembly of persons; gathering"
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The word "congregation" evokes in the minds of most American something democratic in nature, a group of people who meet together as members of some organization to decide something on their own authority. But the 12 Congregations which surround the RCC pope in the government of the Roman Church are not congregations in that sense. They are not committees of RC people chosen by the member of the local churches in various nations. They are appointed committees of appointed cardinals, with a few minor prelates and advisers who are also appointed by the Pope directly or indirectly. They make important decisions but those decisions are subject to approval by the Pope and not by the Roman Catholic people. The Congregations are entirely clerical and unanimously male,. They are in effect, departments of the central government of the Church of Rome, and they form a great network of ecclesiastical power which reaches to every corner of the world.
Church, assembly, and congregation are English words which are synonymous within the context of electing pastors and local bishops in the history of the church.

So when a pastor or bishop was to be chosen, or selected and elected those of the local congregations selected and elected someone known to those of the jurisdiction. The Roman Pope's supposed arrogation of authority in this regard was centuries in the making, centuries down the road.
 
Last edited:
Top