If the U.S. system and culture worked with gradual changes for 245 years, why would some want to drastically change it now?

john james

Well-known member
If the U.S. system and culture worked with gradual changes for 245 years, why would some want to drastically change it now?
 
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LifeIn

Well-known member
If the U.S. system and culture worked with gradual changes for 245 years, why would some want to drastically change it now?
Changes in US culture have been a mixture of gradual changes and huge jumps. For example, women suffrage had a gradual component along with events of sudden change, such as when a critical mass was reached. Then there was a sudden change. The same goes for the civil rights struggle (post-civil war, which was itself a cataclysmic change). There were gradual advances punctuated by moments of sudden change, such as the march from Selma to Montgomery and the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Even gradual changes are moved forward by people pushing for sudden change. No significant change every happened by everyone gradually coming to a new realization.
 

john james

Well-known member
Changes in US culture have been a mixture of gradual changes and huge jumps. For example, women suffrage had a gradual component along with events of sudden change, such as when a critical mass was reached. Then there was a sudden change. The same goes for the civil rights struggle (post-civil war, which was itself a cataclysmic change). There were gradual advances punctuated by moments of sudden change, such as the march from Selma to Montgomery and the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Even gradual changes are moved forward by people pushing for sudden change. No significant change every happened by everyone gradually coming to a new realization.
Maybe some should start learning Chinese
 

Andy Sist

Active member
If the U.S. system and culture worked with gradual changes for 245 years, why would some want to drastically change it now?

There are some exceptions like a war.
...and the end of slavery. And giving voting right to women and minorities. And the experiment with prohibition. And the interment of U.S. citizens of Japanese heritage in WW2. And Jim Crow laws. And giving marriage equality to interracial couples. Just to name a few.

If those don't count as drastic changes then what do?
 

Michael R2

Active member
...and the end of slavery. And giving voting right to women and minorities. And the experiment with prohibition. And the interment of U.S. citizens of Japanese heritage in WW2. And Jim Crow laws. And giving marriage equality to interracial couples. Just to name a few.

If those don't count as drastic changes then what do?
The most drastic change coming from WW2 which still effects us today was the build up of the standing army. Not a bad thing, in my opinion, but definitely a significant cultural change.
 

john james

Well-known member
...and the end of slavery. And giving voting right to women and minorities. And the experiment with prohibition. And the interment of U.S. citizens of Japanese heritage in WW2. And Jim Crow laws. And giving marriage equality to interracial couples. Just to name a few.

If those don't count as drastic changes then what do?
When I say some exceptions like war, I mean things that force the change drastically.
 

Torin

Well-known member
@john james, to my mind your opening thesis has been shown to be false at this point.

More fundamentally though, I question whether it is desirable to evaluate changes in the culture based on how rapidly they occur. If an aspect of our culture is unjust and morally evil, shouldn't it be eliminated completely and immediately? Wasn't the complete and immediate elimination of slavery a good thing?

Isn't this what you would favor in some cases? Do you think abortion should be abolished completely and immediately, or should we keep performing the occasional abortion for the sake of gradual-ness?
 

john james

Well-known member
If the U.S. system and culture worked with gradual changes for 245 years, why would some want to drastically change it now?
Because some don't like the country being based on Christian morality. Some are not satisfied with a country based upon Christian morality with tolerance for ideologies. Tolerance is not good enough. Some are not satisfied with the current culture. Some don't like that the U.S. has opportunity where some can go from being poor to rich based off of hard work. Some are not satisfied with some being able to defend themselves with guns against the government running peoples lives for them.
Some think since each person is equal, that each culture, sub culture, language, tradition, desire, behavior, ideology, religion, act, word, opinion, view, school, income, tax payment and etc should be equal. Some think everything should be equal because they think that by eliminating difference to a point that will remove oppression and discrimination. Some want to change the country to be equal in almost everything. Some want for the U.S. not to be the country that many people in other countries want to come to. Some have guilt from the freedoms, rights and opportunities they have that some in other countries don't have. Some want to make America in their image instead of the image the founding fathers made. Some want to get rid of the constitution. Some think that the country is innately racist and sexist. They want to deconstruct it and build it back so every law, policy, rule, regulation and constitution panders to blacks, women, ingenious people, lgbt and other minorities that are approved by the far/extreme left. Some want to remove the republican party.
Some think America in some ways is not equal to some countries in the rest of the world and want it be brought down some notches in those areas. Some want socialism/communism so a few can control the many with the power taken away from the people. Some Americans think other conservative Americans or patriotic Americans are a threat to America. They want to change America because it has been predominantly one way because the founders made it that way. It was conservative to the point that Justice, Fairness, Loyalty. Sanctity, and Authority were attempt to be accomplished equally. Of course there were things done wrong but that didn't change the goals. Some want to change America to emphasize justice and fairness. Some want to drastically change America because it is no longer good enough for them because their ideology has changed or they having a different ideology have become more powerful. Some don't want the people to have freedom's and rights that allow them to fight tyranny because they need to be tyrannical to change America drastically to what they want it to be. Some think China will be the next number one super power and they are trying to change America to get in good with China. And some just want power and America gives them the ability the way it is now to get that power but they need change it so others can't remove the power from them or get it for themselves. Some want to change the U.S. because the restrictions it has won't let them do what they want like the constitution.
 

Andy Sist

Active member
Some want to make America in their image instead of the image the founding fathers made.

The image the founding fathers made said only white Christian males could vote, or hold office, or own land. The image the founding fathers made said slavery was legal. Do you really think we should go back to those ways?
 

john james

Well-known member
@john james, to my mind your opening thesis has been shown to be false at this point.

More fundamentally though, I question whether it is desirable to evaluate changes in the culture based on how rapidly they occur. If an aspect of our culture is unjust and morally evil, shouldn't it be eliminated completely and immediately? Wasn't the complete and immediate elimination of slavery a good thing?

Isn't this what you would favor in some cases? Do you think abortion should be abolished completely and immediately, or should we keep performing the occasional abortion for the sake of gradual-ness?
It appeared that the founding fathers set up the system to be gradual to avoid change that would be tyrannical to the minority of the population. So some things do need to be changed quickly but not at the expense of others. Which causes a required agreement to a certain point and to negotiate and talk more instead of just running over those who descent.

Once something is deem intolerable by the majority whether good or bad, then the majority tries to stump it out. In many cases those things are actually bad but in some they are good. But to the majority whats intolerable can be good or bad. So equal rights, that's good. Majority stumped out things that hindered equal rights. So slavery, that's bad. Majority (or who won) stumped out slavery. So abortion thats bad. Majority failed to stump that out because some with MAJORITY power in the name of the majority indirectly(majority elected president, president appointed judges) okayed it. (Whether abortion is okay federally or by state is another thing). The system failed with murdering humans/people before they could develop and make it through the birth canal to continue to develop in to am adult. Maybe if it would have been more gradual then that wouldn't have happened. (I know it is much more to it than that)

My point is some tend to impose on others when they are the majority and the system seems to be designed against that when it goes gradually. The country is for every citizen not just the majority.
 

john james

Well-known member
The image the founding fathers made said only white Christian males could vote, or hold office, or own land. The image the founding fathers made said slavery was legal. Do you really think we should go back to those ways?
The image of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with in the constitution based on a Christian morality base.
 

Andy Sist

Active member
The image of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with in the constitution based on a Christian morality base.
Way to completely dodge the questions. Why do you think we should go back to slavery being legal and only white Christian males should have civil rights? That's what the founding fathers wanted. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as long as you were a white Christian male.
 

rossum

Well-known member
... based on a Christian morality base.
Have you read the Constitution they wrote? That pesky piece in the First Amendment about not establishing any religion?

And a great deal of the moral base of Christianity comes from Judaism.
 

john james

Well-known member
Way to completely dodge the questions. Why do you think we should go back to slavery being legal and only white Christian males should have civil rights? That's what the founding fathers wanted. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as long as you were a white Christian male.
They made some mistakes but the mistakes don't make us throw everything in the trash.
 

john james

Well-known member
Have you read the Constitution they wrote? That pesky piece in the First Amendment about not establishing any religion?

And a great deal of the moral base of Christianity comes from Judaism.
One of the founding fathers or one of thempople back then said America wouldn't work with the constitution unless it had a judeo/christian morality. That moral was the glue to each person self governing themselves so they can be governed through the constitution. With that moral framework, then the constitution can end up not being enforced.

It's judeo/Christian because some give credit to Judaism for the foundation that Judaism and Christianity have in common.

Some just say Christianity because where Judaism went wrong. Christianity got right.
 
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