If your eschatology is off, your soteriology is almost guaranteed to be off too.

Although it's common to try and neatly separate the doctrines of soteriology and eschatology, this can't be faithfully done biblically. The reason is this: Certain eschatological views, if true, would affect how we form our soteriology.

I'll use my own beliefs as an example. I believe in a literal millennial kingdom here on earth before the final judgment and the eternal state. I believe that the Bible teaches that many people do not have their eternal destinies fixed at the moment of their death, but will be given all of the available time until the final judgment to secure a place in the new heavens and the new earth. Many people who confessed Christ in this lifetime will nevertheless be found naked, without a wedding garment, with defiled garments, or without oil in their lamps at Christ's return and will be cast into the outer darkness. This outer darkness is not the same as hell or gehenna; it is a geographical location on this present earth that will be a place of exile during the final thousand years of world history. Those who are sent there will weep and gnash their teeth as they behold the comforts of the kingdom of God from a distance.

I believe it is from this group of people that Satan goes "to the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog" and drums up a rebellion against Christ and the saints who are in the kingdom of God (Rev. 20:7-9). If someone in the outer darkness joins with Satan in his final rebellion, then there is no hope for them at the great white throne judgment; but if they don't, then I think scripture leaves open the possibility of their ultimate salvation. (Could this thousand years of testing be the "great tribulation" that Christ threatens the adulterers in Thyatira with in Rev. 2:22? Conversely, could this outer darkness be the "hour of trial" that He tells the Philadelphian believers that He will spare them from in 3:10?)

Consider Paul's argument in Romans chapters 9-11. Contrary to the Calvinist interpretation, his discussion of election does not end in chapter 9; and in chapter 11, he brings his argument full circle by saying that God intends to have mercy on the very individuals that he hardened in chapter 9!

"For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." (Rom. 11:30-32)

How do these verses fix in a Calvinistic scheme of things? What box do they put them in? Since they neatly separate eschatology and soteriology, when exactly do these verses find their fulfillment? Or even if you're not a Calvinist but you believe that one's death ends any opportunity to change one's eternal destiny; what box do you put these verses in? When do you think they will find their fulfillment?

In light of this, doesn't it follow that eschatology and soteriology are one and the same doctrine?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Although it's common to try and neatly separate the doctrines of soteriology and eschatology, this can't be faithfully done biblically. The reason is this: Certain eschatological views, if true, would affect how we form our soteriology.

I'll use my own beliefs as an example. I believe in a literal millennial kingdom here on earth before the final judgment and the eternal state. I believe that the Bible teaches that many people do not have their eternal destinies fixed at the moment of their death, but will be given all of the available time until the final judgment to secure a place in the new heavens and the new earth. Many people who confessed Christ in this lifetime will nevertheless be found naked, without a wedding garment, with defiled garments, or without oil in their lamps at Christ's return and will be cast into the outer darkness. This outer darkness is not the same as hell or gehenna; it is a geographical location on this present earth that will be a place of exile during the final thousand years of world history. Those who are sent there will weep and gnash their teeth as they behold the comforts of the kingdom of God from a distance.

I believe it is from this group of people that Satan goes "to the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog" and drums up a rebellion against Christ and the saints who are in the kingdom of God (Rev. 20:7-9). If someone in the outer darkness joins with Satan in his final rebellion, then there is no hope for them at the great white throne judgment; but if they don't, then I think scripture leaves open the possibility of their ultimate salvation. (Could this thousand years of testing be the "great tribulation" that Christ threatens the adulterers in Thyatira with in Rev. 2:22? Conversely, could this outer darkness be the "hour of trial" that He tells the Philadelphian believers that He will spare them from in 3:10?)

Consider Paul's argument in Romans chapters 9-11. Contrary to the Calvinist interpretation, his discussion of election does not end in chapter 9; and in chapter 11, he brings his argument full circle by saying that God intends to have mercy on the very individuals that he hardened in chapter 9!

"For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." (Rom. 11:30-32)

How do these verses fix in a Calvinistic scheme of things? What box do they put them in? Since they neatly separate eschatology and soteriology, when exactly do these verses find their fulfillment? Or even if you're not a Calvinist but you believe that one's death ends any opportunity to change one's eternal destiny; what box do you put these verses in? When do you think they will find their fulfillment?

In light of this, doesn't it follow that eschatology and soteriology are one and the same doctrine?
Can you establish that apart from an appeal to the book of revelation ?
 
Can you establish that apart from an appeal to the book of revelation ?
Yes, I can. The parables of Jesus are perhaps the best place to start. I'll use three of them for now.

1. The parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35. The worthless servant is forgiven all his debt by the masters; then has his debt reinstated later until it be paid in full.

2. The parable of the unrighteous steward in Luke 16:1-12. The steward learns that he is about to be disinherited, and connives a way to build favor with those who will be in the position to welcome him into their own inheritance.

3. The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. Both the wise and foolish virgins "slumbered and slept", which is almost certainly a reference to those who die while waiting for Christ to come back. But only the foolish ones are punished, and they are punished not for falling asleep but for not having enough oil for their lamps once they "arose" (a reference to their resurrection from the dead). They try to borrow some from the wise virgins, who refuse, and tell them to go "to those who sell, and buy some for yourselves." The implication for this present discussion is: why were the foolish virgins even raised with the wise ones, if they were only going to be excluded from the wedding banquet anyway? Who are these people?

edited to add: And who are "those who sell?"
 
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civic

Well-known member
Although it's common to try and neatly separate the doctrines of soteriology and eschatology, this can't be faithfully done biblically. The reason is this: Certain eschatological views, if true, would affect how we form our soteriology.

I'll use my own beliefs as an example. I believe in a literal millennial kingdom here on earth before the final judgment and the eternal state. I believe that the Bible teaches that many people do not have their eternal destinies fixed at the moment of their death, but will be given all of the available time until the final judgment to secure a place in the new heavens and the new earth. Many people who confessed Christ in this lifetime will nevertheless be found naked, without a wedding garment, with defiled garments, or without oil in their lamps at Christ's return and will be cast into the outer darkness. This outer darkness is not the same as hell or gehenna; it is a geographical location on this present earth that will be a place of exile during the final thousand years of world history. Those who are sent there will weep and gnash their teeth as they behold the comforts of the kingdom of God from a distance.

I believe it is from this group of people that Satan goes "to the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog" and drums up a rebellion against Christ and the saints who are in the kingdom of God (Rev. 20:7-9). If someone in the outer darkness joins with Satan in his final rebellion, then there is no hope for them at the great white throne judgment; but if they don't, then I think scripture leaves open the possibility of their ultimate salvation. (Could this thousand years of testing be the "great tribulation" that Christ threatens the adulterers in Thyatira with in Rev. 2:22? Conversely, could this outer darkness be the "hour of trial" that He tells the Philadelphian believers that He will spare them from in 3:10?)

Consider Paul's argument in Romans chapters 9-11. Contrary to the Calvinist interpretation, his discussion of election does not end in chapter 9; and in chapter 11, he brings his argument full circle by saying that God intends to have mercy on the very individuals that he hardened in chapter 9!

"For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." (Rom. 11:30-32)

How do these verses fix in a Calvinistic scheme of things? What box do they put them in? Since they neatly separate eschatology and soteriology, when exactly do these verses find their fulfillment? Or even if you're not a Calvinist but you believe that one's death ends any opportunity to change one's eternal destiny; what box do you put these verses in? When do you think they will find their fulfillment?

In light of this, doesn't it follow that eschatology and soteriology are one and the same doctrine?
Do you know the point of Jesus teaching about His Return ?

Do you know the point of the Apostles teaching about Jesus Return ?

By Jesus return I mean His 2nd Coming.
 
Do you know the point of Jesus teaching about His Return ?

Do you know the point of the Apostles teaching about Jesus Return ?

By Jesus return I mean His 2nd Coming.
I take the point of Jesus and His Apostles teaching about the 2nd coming to be obvious, since it's wrapped up in what salvation is to begin with.
 

civic

Well-known member
Salvation is deliverance from the power of sin and the devil, with all that that entails. I could sum up "all that entails" by saying it's a gradual reversal of the effects of Adam's original sin in the garden of Eden.
and what does that have to do with Jesus coming again ?
 
and what does that have to do with Jesus coming again ?
Christ must return to earth to restore it to its pristine state before delivering it up to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-28). His desire is that the saints would participate in helping Him restore the creation. He has determined that He will take the final thousand years of world history to do it.
 

civic

Well-known member
Christ must return to earth to restore it to its pristine state before delivering it up to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-28). His desire is that the saints would participate in helping Him restore the creation. He has determined that He will take the final thousand years of world history to do it.
So this is what Jesus taught about His 2nd Coming ?

It has nothing to do with living a life each and every day that the Lord could return and to be ready for His Coming for it will be as a thief in the night when you least expect it ?

Living our life with the expectation that He could return and living each day for Him with that expectation is not what Jesus taught His disciples ?

Why did Jesus say: Be Ready ?

hope this helps !!!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Christ must return to earth to restore it to its pristine state before delivering it up to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-28). His desire is that the saints would participate in helping Him restore the creation. He has determined that He will take the final thousand years of world history to do it.
I thought there was to be a new heaven and new earth?
 
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