I'm decreed to be born a slave of sin, oh boy, I have an excuse!

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
What's your issue with what he said? I reckon @CrowCross is Orthodox when it comes to the Eternality and Separate Nature of God from his Creation...

By the rule of God's Aseity, he'd be correct; right?

I reject the idea that time is exclusive a quality of creation. Eternity isn't the absence of time. It is the endless measure of time. Time without end.

There is not one single Scripture that has says that time ends.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I reject the idea that time is exclusive a quality of creation. Eternity isn't the absence of time. It is the endless measure time. Time without end.

There is not one single Scripture that has says that time ends.
That makes sense, it seems to me that there has to be a Logical procession of disembodied thought. I wouldn't argue against there existing some kind of passage of Time in Eternity; even if it's drastically different from Space-time...

I have argued on the Secular Board that Heaven would be like a Steady State Universe...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
That makes sense, it seems to me that there has to be a Logical procession of disembodied thought. I wouldn't argue against there existing some kind of passage of Time in Eternity; even if it's drastically different from Space-time...

I have argued on the Secular Board that Heaven would be like a Steady State Universe...
Kardashev 5? ~ by ReverendRV

Revelation 21:1 NIV
; Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

When Cosmologists speculate about the existence of Extraterrestrials, they tend to categorize potential civilizations by using the Kardashev Scale; proposed by the Astronomer Nicolai Kardashev long ago in the 60’s. This Scale has three categories based on the use of available energy; Planetary, Stellar and Galactic. Because of the advancement in Quantum Theory, proposals have been made to add a fourth and fifth category to the Scale; Universal and Multiversal Power! Inherent in this proposal is the contingency for the existence of Life which Transcends the Universe; right? Scientists suggest that it’s possible for several kinds of Universes to exist outside of Space and Time; so a ‘Steady State’ Universe could exist. This type of Universe would be Eternal, populated by Eternal people with Multiversal Power. And being Eternal, this demands that it be the ‘Parent Universe’ of all Universes. ~ In a way, Science catches up with the Bible without even knowing it; after all, Heaven, Earth, and Hell would qualify to be a Multiverse; right?

If Kardashev 5 Aliens came to Earth and demanded we keep their law, would you do it? I suppose you wouldn’t have a choice; they have the Might, and Right, as the obvious Creators of the Multiverse. Since a ‘Steady State’ Universe cannot evolve into new Universes, we are their Creation. Such an advanced civilization should be highly ethical, so their Laws would be similar to fundamental Laws we’re already under. ~ Have you ever Stolen ANYTHING? What would someone from a Kardashev 5 society call you for Stealing? “They wouldn’t call me anything, because I took it from MY job”. But remember, you’re under their Law; and they own the World and everything in it, anything you’ve Stolen you’ve stolen from them. ~ Stealing is only one of God’s Ten Commandments; if he judged you by his standard, will you be guilty? The Bible says breaking one Law breaks all of them; even Murder. Would you go to Heaven or to Hell?

God is highly ethical, so he has to love Justice; but he’s just as Merciful. ~ For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not be cast into the Universe of Hell but be received with open arms in the Universe of Heaven. The Logos of God came down from above to be Incarnated in the person of Jesus Christ, to keep the Law of Heaven for Mankind. Though he was not a Lawbreaker, his Cross bore a sign charging him for being the King they didn’t want. He will freely trade you his sign for the sign from the Cross next to his, a sign charging us with Thievery. He shed his blood and died on the Cross as a Thief, the Just dying for the Unjust. He was buried, but arose from the dead; showing he was alive to five hundred people. We’re Saved by merciful Grace through Faith, apart from meritorious Works lest we boast in ourselves. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; go to Church and ask them for a Bible. ~ I always say Science will eventually prove the Bible is true…

Ec 1:9 NLT; History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I reject the idea that time is exclusive a quality of creation. Eternity isn't the absence of time. It is the endless measure of time. Time without end.

There is not one single Scripture that has says that time ends.

I wasn't saying that eternity is the absence of time.

I was arguing that God could not dwell in eternity without being outside of time, otherwise God could only exist now, in the present.

God would be determined, limited and regulated by time, if he is not able to transcend it.

If we say time has always existed from eternity past, either we posit an eternal co-entity with God that he relies on, or we have to say time, itself, is part of the being of God. Both of these defenses fail, because God declared creation had a beginning, and he is not creation. God had no beginning, not because he existed in endless time, but because he was before anything at all began. God did not "begin" because that would define God as regulated and limited by his own creation. And time is not a part of the being of God, because time is something the we experience regulating created things, and this would make God a part of creation. There is a similar issue with logic. Some intelligent minds have speculated that logic itself must be a part of the nature of God, but I have to disagree there as well, because it is defining God out of the limited resources of what we feel able to comprehend.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
That makes sense, it seems to me that there has to be a Logical procession of disembodied thought. I wouldn't argue against there existing some kind of passage of Time in Eternity; even if it's drastically different from Space-time...

I have argued on the Secular Board that Heaven would be like a Steady State Universe...

I was an very active member of the forums @ bible.org for many years. I was probably one of the reasons they locked the forums down a few years later and stopped allowing dissenting views to be expressed on their forum. I joined to give my input into their initial release of the NET Bible. They had released a beta and there were a few things I would have liked to see in their edition. They had considered including ancient Greek OT renderings in their notes. Which never happened. We had extensive debates on the subject.
 

civic

Well-known member
I was an very active member of the forums @ bible.org for many years. I was probably one of the reasons they locked the forums down a few years later and stopped allowing dissenting views to be expressed on their forum. I joined to give my input into their initial release of the NET Bible. They had released a beta and there were a few things I would have liked to see in their edition. They had considered including ancient Greek OT renderings in their notes. Which never happened. We had extensive debates on the subject.
Did you ever interact with Wallace ?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I wasn't saying that eternity is the absence of time.

I was arguing that God could not dwell in eternity without being outside of time, otherwise God could only exist now, in the present.

God would be determined, limited and regulated by time, if he is not able to transcend it.

If we say time has always existed from eternity past, either we posit an eternal co-entity with God that he relies on, or we have to say time, itself, is part of the being of God. Both of these defenses fail, because God declared creation had a beginning, and he is not creation. God had no beginning, not because he existed in endless time, but because he was before anything at all began. God did not "begin" because that would define God as regulated and limited by his own creation. And time is not a part of the being of God, because time is something the we experience regulating created things, and this would make God a part of creation. There is a similar issue with logic. Some intelligent minds have speculated that logic itself must be a part of the nature of God, but I have to disagree there as well, because it is defining God out of the limited resources of what we feel able to comprehend.
Time as we know it, is Space-time; the motion of Space. I suspect that in Heaven, they have Spirit-Time; since God is Spirit but Spaceless...

It will probably blow our Minds; and our brains...
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I wasn't saying that eternity is the absence of time.

I was arguing that God could not dwell in eternity without being outside of time, otherwise God could only exist now, in the present.

God would be determined, limited and regulated by time, if he is not able to transcend it.

If we say time has always existed from eternity past, either we posit an eternal co-entity with God that he relies on, or we have to say time, itself, is part of the being of God. Both of these defenses fail, because God declared creation had a beginning, and he is not creation. God had no beginning, not because he existed in endless time, but because he was before anything at all began. God did not "begin" because that would define God as regulated and limited by his own creation. And time is not a part of the being of God, because time is something the we experience regulating created things, and this would make God a part of creation. There is a similar issue with logic. Some intelligent minds have speculated that logic itself must be a part of the nature of God, but I have to disagree there as well, because it is defining God out of the limited resources of what we feel able to comprehend.

Transcending time in what sense? We can start a thread on this if you like. I believe it is important to understand exactly what that means. Calvinism isn't affected greatly by this, Arminianism is greatly affected by how you view this.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Did you ever interact with Wallace ?

Nothing elaborate. He is a nice guy. Very busy. Always doing something. I considered attending DTS back then. I've considered full time ministry several times in my life but never "pulled the trigger".

Wallace helped on part of the NT. The "bible.org" domain was run by another person from DTS. I can't remember his name right now.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Time as we know it, is Space-time; the motion of Space. I suspect that in Heaven, they have Spirit-Time; since God is Spirit but Spaceless...

It will probably blow our Minds; and our brains...

I agree. The experience of time maybe different but it will not be constrained by space.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Transcending time in what sense? We can start a thread on this if you like. I believe it is important to understand exactly what that means. Calvinism isn't affected greatly by this, Arminianism is greatly affected by how you view this.
I would like to know what you mean by this?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Their conceptual view that God sits outside time as the means for God to know the choices of a human being with freewill.
So far I don't notice a difference between an Arminian and a Calvinist there. To God, a day is the same as a thousand, but to us a day is a day. We kind of agree that Time is probably different in Heaven, but it's the same here for all people. God has to sit outside of SpaceTime; right?
 

civic

Well-known member
So far I don't notice a difference between an Arminian and a Calvinist there. To God, a day is the same as a thousand, but to us a day is a day. We kind of agree that Time is probably different in Heaven, but it's the same here for all people. God has to sit outside of SpaceTime; right?
see ya all later tonight work is making me play in a golf tournament today at a beautiful country club :)
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
So far I don't notice a difference between an Arminian and a Calvinist there. To God, a day is the same as a thousand, but to us a day is a day. We kind of agree that Time is probably different in Heaven, but it's the same here for all people. God has to sit outside of SpaceTime; right?

Space. Yes. Time. No. In fact, I believe that Time is an attribute of God. Just like God is Love. God is Time. At its fundamental level, time is order. It gives order to chaos. Time is fundamental sequence. 1,2,3,4. The laws of Cause/God and Effect/existence/Creation/Heaven.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Space. Yes. Time. No. In fact, I believe that Time is an attribute of God. Just like God is Love. God is Time. At its fundamental level, time is order. It gives order to chaos. Time is fundamental sequence. 1,2,3,4. The laws of Cause/God and Effect/existence/Creation/Heaven.
I've never looked at Time as an Attribute of God, just an Attribute of Space; but it's an interesting thought. You could turn it into some kind of Euthyphro Dilemma; which came first, Time or God?

Spatially, God knew Abraham feared him WHEN he was going to Sacrifice his son. Spiritually, God had always known that; it's interesting stuff. This is probably THE answer to Open Theism...
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I've never looked at Time as an Attribute of God, just an Attribute of Space; but it's an interesting thought. You could turn it into some kind of Euthyphro Dilemma; which came first, Time or God?

Spatially, God knew Abraham feared him WHEN he was going to Sacrifice his son. Spiritually, God had always known that; it's interesting stuff. This is probably THE answer to Open Theism...

I see you've given this much thought over your life. You're exactly right. I've been called an Open Theist but I'm not. You get why. It is hard to get this across to people when you start talking about it.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I see you've given this much thought over your life. You're exactly right. I've been called an Open Theist but I'm not. You get why. It is hard to get this across to people when you start talking about it.
Thanks, but it's the first time I've thought about it. God's given me the Spiritual Gift of Discernment though, Glory to God Alone! I'm glad you're not an Open Theist, God is Omniscient. An Omni-Present God is an Omni-When (for the lack of a better word) God too. An always Present God...
 
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