Imperfect Active Indicative

rossh

Well-known member
I can help you with that. If the Devil was sinning from the beginning and Lucifer was created before he became the Devil then Lucifer was created before the beginning.

This is fun.
How is that help ? Ifs,, suppositions ... ????
Lucifer is his name and his sin was the sin of pride. He thought that he was God, and that because of his beauty.. I believe that all of the angels were created just prior to the creation of the world.... ?
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
How is that help ? Ifs,, suppositions ... ????
Lucifer is his name and his sin was the sin of pride. He thought that he was God, and that because of his beauty.. I believe that all of the angels were created just prior to the creation of the world.... ?
I don't think you understood the point @froggy is trying to make in the OP.

If you do, please state it and why your comment either advances his position or mine.
 

froggy

Active member
I don't think you understood the point @froggy is trying to make in the OP.

If you do, please state it and why your comment either advances his position or mine.
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

The Father was not created in him. At 1 Co 15:27 Paul shows that it is lexically possible for the Father to be included in πάντα (all things).

Interestingly BDAG says that at Colossians 1:15 εν (in) has the sense of "in association with":

BDAG εν - a. fig., of pers., to indicate the state of being filled w. or gripped by someth.: in someone=in one’s innermost being εν αυτω κατοικει παν το. πληρωμα, in him dwells all the fullness Col 2:9. εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα (prob. to be understood as local, not instrumental, since εν αυ. would otherwise be identical w. δι’αυ. in the same vs.) everything was created in association with him 1:16


They apply this to the new creation.
 
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rossh

Well-known member
The Father was not created in him. At 1 Co 15:27 Paul shows that it is lexically possible for the Father to be included in πάντα (all things).

Interestingly BDAG says that at Colossians 1:15 εν (in) has the sense of "in association with":

BDAG εν - a. fig., of pers., to indicate the state of being filled w. or gripped by someth.: in someone=in one’s innermost being εν αυτω κατοικει παν το. πληρωμα, in him dwells all the fullness Col 2:9. εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα (prob. to be understood as local, not instrumental, since εν αυ. would otherwise be identical w. δι’αυ. in the same vs.) everything was created in association with him 1:16


They apply this to the new creation.
We are not saved by Paul nor are we saved by our own doing not even by grammar or by any actions of man or men..
Simply by confessing His as Lord and Messiah/Saviour speaking the words, as per Romans 10.. God has made it all too easy.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
The Father was not created in him. At 1 Co 15:27 Paul shows that it is lexically possible for the Father to be included in πάντα (all things).

Interestingly BDAG says that at Colossians 1:15 εν (in) has the sense of "in association with":

BDAG εν - a. fig., of pers., to indicate the state of being filled w. or gripped by someth.: in someone=in one’s innermost being εν αυτω κατοικει παν το. πληρωμα, in him dwells all the fullness Col 2:9. εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα (prob. to be understood as local, not instrumental, since εν αυ. would otherwise be identical w. δι’αυ. in the same vs.) everything was created in association with him 1:16


They apply this to the new creation.
You mean impossible, I hope.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
We are not saved by Paul nor are we saved by our own doing not even by grammar or by any actions of man or men..
Simply by confessing His as Lord and Messiah/Saviour speaking the words, as per Romans 10.. God has made it all too easy.
Do you have to confess that he is God Almighty Himself to be “saved” ?
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
You mean impossible, I hope.
No, if we specified all persons without exception (πάντα) the Father is included.

Some get hung up on the English gloss "thing" but human beings aren't "things" either. The fact that Paul uses the term πάντα and then excludes the Father from being subject to the Son proves that the Father could be included in πάντα or else there is no point specificity excluding him.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
No, if we specified all persons without exception (πάντα) the Father is included.

Some get hung up on the English gloss "thing" but human beings aren't "things" either. The fact that Paul uses the term πάντα and then excludes the Father from being subject to the Son proves that the Father could be included in πάντα or else there is no point specificity excluding him.
I agree (bold), thus I would have said “grammatically possible..” ( instead of “lexically possible..”) . Because in that verse, the word πάντα cannot have the meaning “all” in the non-restrictive sense, which includes the Father. So it cannot “lexically” have that meaning, in that particular verse. “Lexical” has the following definition:

Lexical definition is - of or relating to words or the vocabulary of a language as distinguished from its grammar and construction.

We agree in principle, …maybe I’m just misunderstanding the word “lexical,” maybe you are. No big deal.
 
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rossh

Well-known member
Do you have to confess that he is God Almighty Himself to be “saved” ?
No.. and irrelevant...
BTW.. I posted all the relevant Scriptures ie; Romans 10, our public confession of Yeshua.. This is imperative regardless of doing other acts of faith and or obedience.. There is no avoiding this, cults never teach this and millions will go all their lives, NOT being save at all, but " thinking " that they are " saved ".. Online Bible searches for the word " lexical/lexicon " results is nothing found...
 
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