Imputed Righteousness in faith alone theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie said:
it is GOD's doing that we are in Christ Jesus, so that Jesus has become our wisdom, our RIGHTEOUSNESS, our sanctification, and our REDEMPTION. Our attempts to keep the law perfectly will always fail. But Jesus kept all the law perfectly, in our stead. When we have faith in Him unto salvation, HIS perfect keeping of the Law is transferred and imputed to us, thus making us perfect in our Heavenly Father's eyes. But it is JESUS' perfection that God sees in us, not our own--for we have none of our own to boast about.
If that is true--then why are all men judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Bonnie--please do show us where it states in the scriptures our choices play no part in obtaining God's grace unto life?

Matthew 16:27--King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

That only shows faith alone theology is false, IMO.
 

GeneZ

Active member
If that is true--then why are all men judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Bonnie--please do show us where it states in the scriptures our choices play no part in obtaining God's grace unto life?

Matthew 16:27--King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

That only shows faith alone theology is false, IMO.
The works we do only indicate what kind of choice a soul would make when confronted with the reality of Jesus Christ. We still have our salvation based upon belief (faith) in Jesus Christ. Those who want to do evil will not believe. Its not their works that condemn thnem. Its their works that reveal their denial of faith tat condemns them. Faith that saves. Its not difficult. God did not give us an obstacle course to fight our way through to be saved. Its easy to be saved.

Its like someone handing you cool water in a desert and you take and drink it. God sees believing in Him as "normal." Its nothing special to believe in Him. Its normal and expected. Its the perverse evil that He has a problem with. Just look at the US congress today as an example of how harmful evil is by their works. They disdain God - those who follow evil......

Its their works that merely reveal their attitude towards the Lord. Its not the cause of their salvation. Its only an indicator if they had been saved to begin with.

Now.. lets not confuse weak believers who follow evil after they are saved. That's another category. These ones lose eternal rewards, yet remain saved for having believed in Christ. Their works are all burned up. Human good is rejected by God. They are still saved in spite of having been weak and lacked faith after having the initial faith that saved them.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder
will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through
the flames. "
1 Corinthians 3:11-15


grace and peace........
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
The works we do only indicate what kind of choice we would make when confronted with the reality of Jesus Christ. We still have our salvation based upon belief (faith) in Jesus Christ. Those who do evil will not believe. Its not their works that condemn thnem.

Hi Gene:

So--how does that comport to the witness of the Savior?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Are you claiming damnation isn't condemnation?
 

GeneZ

Active member
Hi Gene:

So--how does that comport to the witness of the Savior?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Are you claiming damnation isn't condemnation?
There is evil which is pernicious. That is the kind of evil that reveals those not saved. Then their are works that God calls filthy rags. Works that are not pernicious, but of no value to God. Its doing what men tell us is "good things to do" which God has no part of. They are not pernicious. Just wasted. "wood, hay, and stubble." All to be burned up and brought to nought . Not loss of salvation (the foundation we all build upon). But the loss of eternal rewards that God wants so much to bless us with.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder
will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through
the flames. "
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
There is evil which is pernicious. That is the kind of evil that reveals those not saved. Then their are works that God calls filthy rags. Works that are not pernicious, but of no value to God. Its doing what men tell us is "good things to do" which God has no part of. They are not pernicious. Just wasted. "wood, hay, and stubble." All to be burned up and brought to nought . Not loss of salvation (the foundation we all build upon). But the loss of eternal rewards that God wants so much to bless us with.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder
will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through
the flames. "
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
All will be saved--as to the resurrection. IOW--they are not annihilated.

But Paul did not teach they would be saved unto eternal life:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That is a judgment of works. Those works determine whether they enter into life.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
All will be saved--as to the resurrection. IOW--they are not annihilated.

But Paul did not teach they would be saved unto eternal life:

Biblical salvation is not merely "resurrection".
Biblical salvation is what Mormons call "exaltation".

But thank you for admitting the Mormon misunderstanding of Biblical resurrection and Biblical salvation.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The acts of those who make a living doing those sins, is evidence that they do not have the Holy Spirit, and so are not saved.

You try to make salvation (what Mormons call "exaltation") dependent on the law, which is CONTRADICTED by Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 3:19-20, Rom. 4:5, Rom. 11:5-6, Gal. 3:24-25, etc. etc. etc.

Rom. 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Gal. 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Biblical salvation is not merely "resurrection".
Biblical salvation is what Mormons call "exaltation".

But thank you for admitting the Mormon misunderstanding of Biblical resurrection and Biblical salvation.
The LDS believe there are a number of things "saved" can mean, so I'm not sure what your point is above.

The acts of those who make a living doing those sins, is evidence that they do not have the Holy Spirit, and so are not saved.

I agree. My point in quoting Paul was to show those acts do make a difference of whether one inherits the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You try to make salvation (what Mormons call "exaltation") dependent on the law, which is CONTRADICTED by Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 3:19-20, Rom. 4:5, Rom. 11:5-6, Gal. 3:24-25, etc. etc. etc.


Rom. 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Gal. 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Cite, please. The LDS do not believe Christians are under the Mosaic law.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The works we do only indicate what kind of choice a soul would make when confronted with the reality of Jesus Christ. We still have our salvation based upon belief (faith) in Jesus Christ. Those who want to do evil will not believe. Its not their works that condemn thnem. Its their works that reveal their denial of faith tat condemns them. Faith that saves. Its not difficult. God did not give us an obstacle course to fight our way through to be saved. Its easy to be saved.

Its like someone handing you cool water in a desert and you take and drink it. God sees believing in Him as "normal." Its nothing special to believe in Him. Its normal and expected. Its the perverse evil that He has a problem with. Just look at the US congress today as an example of how harmful evil is by their works. They disdain God - those who follow evil......

Its their works that merely reveal their attitude towards the Lord. Its not the cause of their salvation. Its only an indicator if they had been saved to begin with.

Now.. lets not confuse weak believers who follow evil after they are saved. That's another category. These ones lose eternal rewards, yet remain saved for having believed in Christ. Their works are all burned up. Human good is rejected by God. They are still saved in spite of having been weak and lacked faith after having the initial faith that saved them.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder
will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through
the flames. "
1 Corinthians 3:11-15


grace and peace........

If that is true--then why are all men judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Bonnie--please do show us where it states in the scriptures our choices play no part in obtaining God's grace unto life?

Matthew 16:27--King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

That only shows faith alone theology is false, IMO.
Those who have done good are believers in Christ, they have been clothed in Christs righteousness who did good for them. Those who have done evil are they who are outside of Christ and trust in their works, which are evil !
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Those who have done good are believers in Christ, they have been clothed in Christs righteousness who did good for them. Those who have done evil are they who are outside of Christ and trust in their works, which are evil !
How does that cover up or cancel out the fact they all were judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

How does that fit faith alone theology?:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
How does that cover up or cancel out the fact they all were judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

How does that fit faith alone theology?:
The elect will be rewarded for their good works through Christ, it will be all of grace. The non elect who are condemned by the law will be judged for all their sins against the law..
 

GeneZ

Active member
Hi Gene:

So--how does that comport to the witness of the Savior?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Are you claiming damnation isn't condemnation?



If you are saved? Your works can be condemned. But, not condemn the saved person doing the condemned works.

One can believe in Jesus Christ after hearing enough correct teaching from the Gospel.. And, then after? Follow some false teaching system and produce only wood, hay and stubble. His works will be condemned by burning in fire (destruction). He will have nothing to show for his salvation except his resurrection body. He will be denied eternal rewards and will not reign with Christ.

To accept false teaching is to deny the Word of God. Jesus says that those who deny Him (He is the Word) .. He in turn will deny them (their rewards that would be enabling them to serve and reign with Him)

For the believer his works can be condemned and burned.

For the unbeliever? His works will be searched in hopes of finding one sole work amongst them..

This work will not be found..


Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:28-29​


We know that we are not saved by (a system of) works. (plural) But! We are saved by one work. One work alone!

When that one work will not be found among all the works on record of the unbeliever?


“The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


His works will condemn Him, for not believing! For not finding that one work among all his works.

grace and peace........
 

civic

Active member
If that is true--then why are all men judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Can you tell us what the context is in the John 5:28-29 passage you quoted ?

Why would you quote this verse without understanding the context ?

Unless you understand the context of Jesus words in 28-29 then those words cannot be understood properly.

BTW this is the 2nd time today I have asked you this question so why are you avoiding the question ?

hope this helps !!!
 
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GeneZ

Active member
All will be saved--as to the resurrection. IOW--they are not annihilated.

But Paul did not teach they would be saved unto eternal life:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That is a judgment of works. Those works determine whether they enter into life.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


All those who will go to the Lake of Fire will first be resurrected! Stand before the Lord to be judged.

Then thrown into the Lake of Fire!

The unbeliever's resurrection body will not be imperishable!


And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away.
It is better for you to enter life with one eye
than to have two eyes and
be thrown into the fire of hell."


They will have a body when thrown into the Lake of Fire!
 

Gary Mac

Member
Bonnie said:
it is GOD's doing that we are in Christ Jesus, so that Jesus has become our wisdom, our RIGHTEOUSNESS, our sanctification, and our REDEMPTION. Our attempts to keep the law perfectly will always fail. But Jesus kept all the law perfectly, in our stead. When we have faith in Him unto salvation, HIS perfect keeping of the Law is transferred and imputed to us, thus making us perfect in our Heavenly Father's eyes. But it is JESUS' perfection that God sees in us, not our own--for we have none of our own to boast about.

WOW Bonnie this is spot on. Why when I post this same thing of the Father to be like Him as Jesus was like Him and we all are who have the same as Jesus did from the Father that you categorize from me as blaspheme?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
How does that cover up or cancel out the fact they all were judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The elect will be rewarded for their good works through Christ, it will be all of grace. The non elect who are condemned by the law will be judged for all their sins against the law..
There isn't any differentiation between the "elect" or "non elect"--as to the judgment of all by their works--as Paul testtifies to:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

All will be judged according to their works--after death--and that for life or damnation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
There isn't any differentiation between the "elect" or "non elect"--as to the judgment of all by their works--as Paul testtifies to:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

All will be judged according to their works--after death--and that for life or damnation
Yes there are difference in the Elect and non elect, a silly statement
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Yes there are difference in the Elect and non elect, a silly statement
Not when is it comes to being judged according to works:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
 
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GeneZ

Active member
Not when is come to being judged according to works:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


The elect are being "evaluated" by their works. Will it be rewards, or no rewards?

The unbelievers will be "exposed" by their works. Shown to have never believed in Christ.


For.. one essential work will be missing for the unbeliever. The following will not be found.


“What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this:
to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:28-29


All the elect will all be shown to have at least that one work on record.


grace and peace.........
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The elect are being "evaluated" by their works. Will it be rewards, or no rewards?

The unbelievers will be "exposed" by their works. Shown to have never believed in Christ.


For.. one essential work will be missing for the unbeliever. The following will not be found.


“What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this:
to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:28-29


All the elect will all be shown to have at least that one work on record.


grace and peace.........
So--are these the believers?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
 

civic

Active member
All will be judged according to their works--after death--and that for life or damnation
Can you tell us what the context is in the John 5:28-29 passage you quoted ?

Why would you quote this verse without understanding the context ?

Unless you understand the context of Jesus words in 28-29 then those words cannot be understood properly.

BTW this is the 3nd time today I have asked you this question so why are you avoiding the question ?

hope this helps !!!
 
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