In Christ

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Were you not able to understand ?

Its not a matter of revelation

it a matter of the rational vs your interpretation

for there are other interpretations which are available and rational
When people have mysterious interpretations that defy logic and reason and are at odds with the grammar and vocabulary, it is mostly because they have pet doctrines to protect.
 
When people have mysterious interpretations that defy logic and reason and are at odds with the grammar and vocabulary, it is mostly because they have pet doctrines to protect.
Yep and that poster has many
 
When people have mysterious interpretations that defy logic and reason and are at odds with the grammar and vocabulary, it is mostly because they have pet doctrines to protect.
People were Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4, meaning they were in Christ before the foundation.
 
People were Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4, meaning they were in Christ before the foundation.
Catch 22

One cannot receive the spirit or be regenerated without faith in the gospel
 
Its the Truth, People were in Christ Jesus before the foundation, Chosen in Him by God the Father Eph 1 4
Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

there were no people then
 
Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

there were no people then
We have to take God at His word, even when it defys human reason and logic. Those very ones in Eph 2 12 whom Paul was writing to, were in Christ , chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4
 
We have to take God at His word, even when it defys human reason and logic. Those very ones in Eph 2 12 whom Paul was writing to, were in Christ , chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4
The problem is not taking God at his word

Its your interpretation that is the problem

Scripture never contradicts itself but you make it contradict itself with your interpretation

Eph. 2:12 —KJV
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”
 
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We have to take God at His word, even when it defys human reason and logic. Those very ones in Eph 2 12 whom Paul was writing to, were in Christ , chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4
You are right that we have to take God at His word, and of course it is to our benefit to do that.
But your idea that God's word will defy human logic is misplaced. My experience is that God wants us to understand His Word, therefore He speaks to us in ways that we can understand if we want to understand.
What I see happening for all of us, not just Calvinists, is we want everything to fit into our doctrinal box, so we "see" things in scripture that are not there in an attempt to verify our doctrine.
All of us have to be aware of that and ask the Spirit to guide us thru that.
 
When people have mysterious interpretations that defy logic and reason and are at odds with the grammar and vocabulary, it is mostly because they have pet doctrines to protect.
A perfect example and I could name at least 2 dozen off the top of my head would be the following with your beliefs that contradict Scripture and Orthodoxy.

For there IS One God and One Mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus. ( 1 Timothy 2:5)

Your view defies logic, reason , grammar and vocabulary to come up with the HERESY that Jesus is no longer a man in this passage.

hope this helps !!!
 
The problem is not taking God at his word

Its your interpretation that is the problem

Scripture never contradicts itself but you make it contradict itself with your interpretation

Eph. 2:12 —KJV
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”
Yes it is. His Word is clear in both verses, In Eph 2 12 qnd Eph 1 4. The ones in 2 12 that were without Christ, were in Christ , chosen in Him before the foundation. Take God at His word !
 
You are right that we have to take God at His word, and of course it is to our benefit to do that.
But your idea that God's word will defy human logic is misplaced.
My experience is that God wants us to understand His Word, therefore He speaks to us in ways that we can understand if we want to understand.
What I see happening for all of us, not just Calvinists, is we want everything to fit into our doctrinal box, so we "see" things in scripture that are not there in an attempt to verify our doctrine.
All of us have to be aware of that and ask the Spirit to guide us thru that.
Yes thats right !

I cant believe you made that statement, with as many truths there are in the bible that defy human logic. Im not even going to name them, its so much of a ridiculous statement
 
Yes thats right !

I cant believe you made that statement, with as many truths there are in the bible that defy human logic. Im not even going to name them, its so much of a ridiculous statement
The problem is that you claim mystery when you don't like what it says, not because it is hidden.
I keep wondering why Calvinists play so many games in these discussions.
Do you have any insight as to why you dodge questions and pretend you have explained things you never explained?
 
The problem is that you claim mystery when you don't like what it says, not because it is hidden.
I keep wondering why Calvinists play so many games in these discussions.
Do you have any insight as to why you dodge questions and pretend you have explained things you never explained?
The Elect were in Christ before the foundation Eph 1 4 before they had any actual physical being.
 
Yes it is. His Word is clear in both verses, In Eph 2 12 qnd Eph 1 4. The ones in 2 12 that were without Christ, were in Christ , chosen in Him before the foundation. Take God at His word !
Hello

Its not his word that is the problem but your por ibterpretation of his word

Eph. 2:12 —KJV
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”
 
You completely ignored what i posted

What ? God cannot choose under what conditions he desires to save ?.

You provide no evidence that according to the good please of his will is unconditional

Can you deny this is his will

Eph. 1:8–10 —KJV
“Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”

and are we not told how one becomes in Christ ?

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

you have only assumed God unconditionally selects men to be in Christ as the bible never states it

You failed to address the scripture I posted and just repeated you assumption that the good please of his will means he arbitrarily selected some with no conditions to be in Christ

It is an assumption you offer without a biblical text in support and

Assumption is not solid grounds for labeling any argument weak

Provide evidence and deal with opposing argument for assumption does not advance your position
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that God's ability to choose under what conditions he desires to save is not in the slightest a sound/rational question to be asking? I don't have to provide evidence for something as clear as "according to the good pleasure of His will." That statement, in the English language, speaks for itself. Will and desire are the same thing, which is the same as want. So He chose because He wanted to. That is synonymous to unconditional, or better yet, without merit. There is nothing you had done that drew Him to you before the foundation of the world, that is, before you were even born. Before Adam was even created. Yet, such a statement means that God knew Adam would sin before the foundation of the world. Take that bone and chew on it. It seems that God is more Creator then He is human, yet you keep looking at Him as human, and judging Him on a completely unsuitable standard.

His choice was His will, since it was "according to the good pleasure of His will", so He willed to be unconditional, and chose how He felt like.

Ephesians 1:4 is something that God did in His domain. Ephesians 1:13 is in our domain, speaking of our salvation, the fulfilling of His choice by His will before the foundation of the world. It was destined to happen, because God chose, and God willed it. He is the author of salvation.

Why can't He choose arbitrarily? Are you going to throw a tantrum about all the work you did to get Him to choose you? I am not assuming that "according to the good pleasure of His will" is unconditional, I am fully digesting the English phrase and its meaning, and that is it's meaning. It is unconditional, based on no merit of our own. No amount of work on our part to stick out has any impact on the choice He made before the foundation of the world. Since you are saying that what I am saying has no support in scripture, then the burden of proof, when being rational, is on you to give the list of conditions God used to choose. Since "according to the good purpose of His will" is placed in the sentence where a condition would be placed, and this basically means it was how He felt, or even arbitrary, then this verse is not evidence of what you are saying. So please, give us the list of conditions God used when choosing us before the foundation of the world, and it has to be connected to what Ephesians 1:4 states, which is He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Give us the in stone conditions, the list of requirements God had in order to choose us. Saying He looked forward beyond the foundation of the earth is, for obvious reasons, an unsound/invalid argument, since it clearly states that it was before the foundation of the world. If you can't just state that you can see how this can be, but you can't understand it, you have not freed God from your human standards.
 
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