In Christ

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Okay....

So now it's time for you (since you have claimed to have studied the ECF's "enough") to QUOTE where they taught, "all men have the inherent ability to believe, outside of God's help".

Ready.... Set.... Go!
so you admit you cannot rebut my claim

And the claim is they could do so without being previously regeneration not that they could do so without grace without grace

i already gave you better that I showed it from the scriptures
 
so you admit you cannot rebut my claim

I already did.
You simply went, "nuh-huh".

i already gave you better that I showed it from the scriptures

<Chuckle>

You are always so funny when you declare YOURSELF the winner of debates.
There's a reason that judges are impartial, and not connected with either side.
That means your "judgment" is worthless.

Now you go and have a nice day, okay? ;)
 
I already did.
You simply went, "nuh-huh".

Afraid not

You did not post a single verse stating man was unable to believe te gospel
<Chuckle>

You are always so funny when you declare YOURSELF the winner of debates.
There's a reason that judges are impartial, and not connected with either side.
That means your "judgment" is worthless.

Now you go and have a nice day, okay? ;)

As yours would be

In any case i did not see where you rebutted any of the arguments from scripture I gave

You also have a nice day
 

Great!
So we agree that "believing" is pleasing to God.

Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you2 free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,3 he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

This passage is similar to 1 Cor. 2:14, only where Paul contrasts the "psuchikos" ("natural") with the "pneumatikos" ("spiritual") in 1 Cor. 2, he contrasts the "sarkos" ("flesh") with the "pneuma" ("spirit") in Rom. 8.

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1) You agree "believing" is pleasing to God.
2) Paul teaches that those "in the flesh" cannot please God.
3) Therefore those "in the flesh" (as opposed to "in the spirit") cannot believe.

Have a nice day! ;)
 
tom

You did not post a single verse stating man was unable to believe te gospel

Believing the Gospel, the natural man cannot do it 1 Cor 2:14.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Neither can denotes unable, no ability !
 
Great!
So we agree that "believing" is pleasing to God.

Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you2 free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,3 he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

This passage is similar to 1 Cor. 2:14, only where Paul contrasts the "psuchikos" ("natural") with the "pneumatikos" ("spiritual") in 1 Cor. 2, he contrasts the "sarkos" ("flesh") with the "pneuma" ("spirit") in Rom. 8.

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1) You agree "believing" is pleasing to God.
2) Paul teaches that those "in the flesh" cannot please God.
3) Therefore those "in the flesh" (as opposed to "in the spirit") cannot believe.

Have a nice day! ;)
What you missed is it is talking aboiut pleasing God by obeying the law

on the other hand

God is pleased by faith


Heb. 11:1–6 —KJV
Ҧ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him
: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
 
What you missed is it is talking aboiut pleasing God by obeying the law

on the other hand

God is pleased by faith

What a joke.
The passage says that those in the flesh CANNOT please God.

It is NOT restricted to "pleasing God by obeying the law".
Otherwise, since no one can obey the law, you are saying that NOBODY can please God EVER!


You refuse to accept the plain meaning of Scripture:

"Those that are in the flesh .... CANNOT. PLEASE. GOD.

It's right there in black and white.
But you REJECT it because of your false theology.
 
What a joke.
The passage says that those in the flesh CANNOT please God.

It is NOT restricted to "pleasing God by obeying the law".
Otherwise, since no one can obey the law, you are saying that NOBODY can please God EVER!


You refuse to accept the plain meaning of Scripture:

"Those that are in the flesh .... CANNOT. PLEASE. GOD.

It's right there in black and white.
But you REJECT it because of your false theology.
LOL

Were you not able to read

one concerns the law Man cannot keep the law to please god

the other involves faith and it is clearly stated God is pleased by faith

Heb. 11:1–5 —KJV
Ҧ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report. - Elders got a good report
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. Abel was righteous by faith
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that Enoch pleased god - with his faith

Sorry but you just ignored context

Rom. 8:2–7 —KJV
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

Men in flesh cannot please God by obeying the law

They can please him through faith
 
What a joke.
The passage says that those in the flesh CANNOT please God.

It is NOT restricted to "pleasing God by obeying the law".
Otherwise, since no one can obey the law, you are saying that NOBODY can please God EVER!


You refuse to accept the plain meaning of Scripture:

"Those that are in the flesh .... CANNOT. PLEASE. GOD.

It's right there in black and white.
But you REJECT it because of your false theology.
It also says the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That means the Carnal mind is not subject to God and can't be. Also the law here can be taken in it's broadest meaning . It's the greek word νόμος and means:

usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

a law or rule producing a state approved of God, i. e. by the observance of which we are approved of God, Romans 9:31, cf. Meyer (see Weiss edition), Fritzsche, Philippi at the passage; a precept or injunction: κατά νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης, Hebrews 7:16; plural of the things prescribed by the divine will,

. a command, law

Now both faith and repentance are commanded by God

The Carnal mind can't be submitted to God. The Carnal mind is simply all men by nature.
 
It also says the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God Rom 8:7

No kidding that is why man cannot please God by obeying the law

Thank you for helping me illustrate my point

He can however please God by his faith

Heb. 11:1–11 —KJV
Ҧ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was”
 
No kidding that is why man cannot please God by obeying the law

Thank you for helping me illustrate my point

He can however please God by his faith

Heb. 11:1–11 —KJV
Ҧ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was”
He can't obey God period since he's not subject to God.
 
He can't obey God period since he's not subject to God.
Your problem is with scripture

Heb. 11:1–11 —KJV
Ҧ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him:


Hint with faith you can please him



for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was”
 
Your problem is with scripture

Heb. 11:1–11 —KJV
Ҧ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him:


Hint with faith you can please him



for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was”
If anyone obeyed God as recorded in Heb 11 it was because they were born of God. The natural carnal mind is enmity against God and not subject to God. Sorry!
 
If anyone obeyed God as recorded in Heb 11 it was because they were born of God. The natural carnal mind is enmity against God and not subject to God. Sorry!
Sorry

Can't be born again without faith in the gospel and the indwelling of the spirit
 
Sorry

Can't be born again without faith in the gospel and the indwelling of the spirit
No faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5 22 if anyone by faith obeyed God, they were born again of the Spirit when they done it . Like Abraham here Heb 11:8

8 [k]By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed God, to go out into a place, which he should afterward receive for inheritance, and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
 
No faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5 22 if anyone by faith obeyed God, they were born again of the Spirit when they done it . Like Abraham here Heb 11:8

8 [k]By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed God, to go out into a place, which he should afterward receive for inheritance, and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Ah

So you do believe unbelievers can have the fruit of the spirit

See that readers

after all the games you played about reading your op and questioning where you gave any such indication

you now give confirmation
 
No faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5 22 if anyone by faith obeyed God, they were born again of the Spirit when they done it . Like Abraham here Heb 11:8

8 [k]By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed God, to go out into a place, which he should afterward receive for inheritance, and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
I will repeat to you a post you ignored. In the parable of the sower, the good soil bears fruit. This only happens after the seed sprouts and the plant appears.
You are claiming that the fruit of faith in Galatians is produced before the plant sprouts.
The word "fruit" is important in understanding what concept is being taught. So far you are ignoring the concept that the plant must first grow before it can produce fruit
You are in effect calling the sower's seed "faith"
 
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