In Christ

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Sethproton said:
It could be that if your goal is to pigeonhole me instead of actually consider what i say, you might get confused. But I wonder why you responded to my post but had no intention to address what i said: the difference between grace and salvation.
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One has 5 letters and the other has 8. One is the thing by which God gives us salvation. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that salvation is not of yourself, it is a gift of God... (These two verses reflect upon verses previous, which are talking about salvation, therefore the missing salvation in the actual verse is understood in the Greek grammar. English grammar is weird because it needs faith in that spot, but the Greek grammar is different.)

I'm not trying to pidgeonhole you. I am incredibly tired and can't remember off the top of my head which side you are coming from.
 
armylngst said:
Have you been watching the comments? He won't accept anything about God's election unless it is explicitly mentioned, so no implicit mention is permitted in this argument. He is trying to say that faith is a CONDITION of God electing us. That is, if you never have faith, God will not elect you.
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Yes. I understand what he is doing, but not that you deny the noun faith is in the verse when the verb believe is there.
Why argue like that?
 
armylngst said:
One has 5 letters and the other has 8. One is the thing by which God gives us salvation. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that salvation is not of yourself, it is a gift of God... (These two verses reflect upon verses previous, which are talking about salvation, therefore the missing salvation in the actual verse is understood in the Greek grammar. English grammar is weird because it needs faith in that spot, but the Greek grammar is different.)

I'm not trying to pidgeonhole you. I am incredibly tired and can't remember off the top of my head which side you are coming from.
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It is preferable that you don't know what side a person comes from. it might help you(and me) to actually consider what is being said, instead of finding the way to dismiss it
 
armylngst said:
Where ?

Where does the bible say faith is not a condition but a reaction

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
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Where is the FAITH? I don't see it mentioned here. In fact, it only says that those who received him have the power to become sons of God. No faith here.
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Hello what do you think receiving him believing on his name refers to

Head knowledge does not give anyone the right to become a child of God



armylngst said:
TomFL said:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
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Where is the faith here. I don't see it explicitly mentioned anywhere in this verse. Faith and belief are not the same thing. Belief follows faith, but belief is not faith. Belief is an action, faith is not. (Or Ephesians 2:8-9 got it all wrong.)
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Hear and believe

Belief does not follow faith

Faith is trust in what is believed

You are simply wrong

and it is implied by John

However

4102 πίστις [pistis /pis·tis/] n f. From 3982; TDNT 6:174; TDNTA 849; GK 4411; 244 occurrences; AV translates as “faith” 239 times, “assurance” once, “believe + 1537” once, “belief” once, “them that believe” once, and “fidelity” once. 1 conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1A relating to God. 1A1 the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ. 1B relating to Christ. 1B1 a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. 1C the religious beliefs of Christians. 1D belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. 2 fidelity, faithfulness. 2A the character of one who can be relied on.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).


You are in need of a better argument
 
Sethproton said:
Yes. I understand what he is doing, but not that you deny the noun faith is in the verse when the verb believe is there.
Why argue like that?
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If you know his argument, then you would know. Apparently you don't know what he is doing. He is trying to make the argument that faith is the condition by which God chose to elect people. He then uses verses that show belief, but not that faith is why God is choosing people.
 
Sethproton said:
It is preferable that you don't know what side a person comes from. it might help you(and me) to actually consider what is being said, instead of finding the way to dismiss it
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I'm just trying not to say something that is incorrect, because I can't remember something.
 
armylngst said:
If you know his argument, then you would know. Apparently you don't know what he is doing. He is trying to make the argument that faith is the condition by which God chose to elect people. He then uses verses that show belief, but not that faith is why God is choosing people.
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You were shown to be confused about the meaning of faith

Faith is a noun form believe a verb

​


Definition of faith​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president
b(1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith
2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefsthe Protestant faith
 
TomFL said:
You were shown to be confused about the meaning of faith

Faith is a noun form believe a verb

​


Definition of faith​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president
b(1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith
2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefsthe Protestant faith
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You couldn't even give the biblical definition, but are completely bound to the worldly definition? I actually put down the biblical definition of faith. but apparently you missed that.
 
armylngst said:
You couldn't even give the biblical definition, but are completely bound to the worldly definition? I actually put down the biblical definition of faith. but apparently you missed that.
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Face it


Definition of faith​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president
b(1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith
2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefsthe Protestant faith

4102 πίστις [pistis /pis·tis/] n f. From 3982; TDNT 6:174; TDNTA 849; GK 4411; 244 occurrences; AV translates as “faith” 239 times, “assurance” once, “believe + 1537” once, “belief” once, “them that believe” once, and “fidelity” once. 1 conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1A relating to God. 1A1 the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ. 1B relating to Christ. 1B1 a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. 1C the religious beliefs of Christians. 1D belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. 2 fidelity, faithfulness. 2A the character of one who can be relied on.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

you are wrong on more than one score
 
TomFL said:
Face it

​

Definition of faith​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president
b(1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith
2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefsthe Protestant faith

4102 πίστις [pistis /pis·tis/] n f. From 3982; TDNT 6:174; TDNTA 849; GK 4411; 244 occurrences; AV translates as “faith” 239 times, “assurance” once, “believe + 1537” once, “belief” once, “them that believe” once, and “fidelity” once. 1 conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1A relating to God. 1A1 the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ. 1B relating to Christ. 1B1 a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. 1C the religious beliefs of Christians. 1D belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. 2 fidelity, faithfulness. 2A the character of one who can be relied on.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

you are wrong on more than one score
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Yet somehow you completely failed to mention that the biblical definition of faith is not found anywhere in the dictionary, though Paul clearly mentioned it. So you run to the world instead of scripture. Typical.
 
armylngst said:
Yet somehow you completely failed to mention that the biblical definition of faith is not found anywhere in the dictionary, though Paul clearly mentioned it. So you run to the world instead of scripture. Typical.
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Nonsense

You have not produced anything supporting your claim and it was shown how the Word is variously used indiscriminately at times and faith as defined by english dictionary and lexicons in terms of belief


Definition of faith​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president
b(1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith

2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefsthe Protestant faith

4102 πίστις [pistis /pis·tis/] n f. From 3982; TDNT 6:174; TDNTA 849; GK 4411; 244 occurrences; AV translates as “faith” 239 times, “assurance” once, “believe + 1537” once, “belief” once, “them that believe” once, and “fidelity” once. 1 conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1A relating to God. 1A1 the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ. 1B relating to Christ. 1B1 a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. 1C the religious beliefs of Christians. 1D belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. 2 fidelity, faithfulness. 2A the character of one who can be relied on.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

Here is another for you

2. trust, confidence, faith in the active sense=‘believing’, in relig. usage

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 662.

4102. πίστις pístis; gen. písteōs, fem. noun from peíthō (3982), to win over, persuade. Faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality or faithfulness (though rare). Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith.

Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000).

and more
 
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TomFL said:
Nonsense

You have not produced anything supporting your claim and it was shown how the Word is variously used indiscriminately at times and faith as defined by english dictionary and lexicons in terms of belief

​

Definition of faith​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president
b(1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith

2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefsthe Protestant faith

4102 πίστις [pistis /pis·tis/] n f. From 3982; TDNT 6:174; TDNTA 849; GK 4411; 244 occurrences; AV translates as “faith” 239 times, “assurance” once, “believe + 1537” once, “belief” once, “them that believe” once, and “fidelity” once. 1 conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1A relating to God. 1A1 the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ. 1B relating to Christ. 1B1 a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. 1C the religious beliefs of Christians. 1D belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. 2 fidelity, faithfulness. 2A the character of one who can be relied on.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

Here is another for you

2. trust, confidence, faith in the active sense=‘believing’, in relig. usage

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 662.

4102. πίστις pístis; gen. písteōs, fem. noun from peíthō (3982), to win over, persuade. Faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality or faithfulness (though rare). Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith.

Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000).

and more
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I like the (though rare) part.
 
TomFL said:
Yes Paul well

In any case the bible does not contradict itself

So there is no value in your claim
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That would mean you make the Bible contradict itself. It wasn't me who presented an actual situation where Jesus would not be born.
 
armylngst said:
That would mean you make the Bible contradict itself. It wasn't me who presented an actual situation where Jesus would not be born.
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Wrong i state the opposite

I affirm Paul is consistent with John and other writers
 
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