In Roman Catholic History, Did That "Church" Ever Feel Threatened?

You can mock God all you want.

None of that will justify killing Christians.




Yeah. More jokes about killing Christians.

I have heard all this from devout Catholics before. I have tons of their posts saved.

What is funny is that I have never joked about killing Catholics. Must be those sacraments.



Justifying evil is the same everywhere we look.




You are so down with the idea of killing Christians that you mention it repeatedly in one post.
It shows RCs love others and what they would love to do.
 
Let me get this straight:

IF the Church was a theocracy like in the OT, then you would have had no problem with burning heretics at the stake?

The only reason you object to the practice was because the Church was not a strict theocracy?
DO you even READ the foolishness you write???? You SERIOUSLY see no difference between the Old testament Jewish system, and the "one true church" mixing with a PAGAN GOVERNMENT!!!???

Get real!!!!
 
True or false?
All believers are in the Body of Christ
all believers belong to the body of christ but unfortunately there is no unity.
there is invisible unity through baptism but not visible unity which Jesus prayed for (John 17:22–23).
 
all believers belong to the body of christ but unfortunately there is no unity.
there is invisible unity through baptism but not visible unity which Jesus prayed for (John 17:22–23).
John 17 is about our position IN Christ
We are unified in our position IN Christ

John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—
23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

In this life, we will never be unified in our beliefs


"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Is. 55

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.…
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
 
You can mock God all you want. None of that will justify killing Christians.
They were heretics, not Christians. But you miss the point. You object to the Church using the death penalty against heretics, yet have no problem with stoning rebellious teens, adulterers, gays, etc., in the OT?
Yeah. More jokes about killing Christians.
Heretics are not Christians. Again, killing "Christians" (heretics) is not alright, but stoning people is?
I have heard all this from devout Catholics before. I have tons of their posts saved.
Sign....head shake....

YOU MISS THE POINT. I was not joking about killing "Christians" or even heretics. The POINT is this: why do you object to the Church using the death penalty against heretics, but you do not object to the Old Testament use of the death penalty by stoning?
What is funny is that I have never joked about killing Catholics. Must be those sacraments.
Good--cause I wasn't joking. I was making a POINT which, surprise, surprise, you missed.
Justifying evil is the same everywhere we look.
I am not attempting to justify rape. First, there is a difference between using the death penalty against heretics who were given a trial, had rights, a chance to defend themselves, and still refused to recant, and----rape. I do not know what is scarier: the fact that you can't see this or the fact that you think the RCC killed "Christians." Be that as it may, in a society where Church and state are separate, charging people with heresy makes no sense, much less putting them to death. The context was different then.
You are so down with the idea of killing Christians that you mention it repeatedly in one post.
No, but I am reasonable. I know that it is unfair to judge one time period in history by our own modern standards. You have to judge a time period in history based on the standards of that time.
 
Again, if the one true Church was a theocracy, you would have no problem with burning heretics?
If the "Theo" is Father God, and HE SAYS TO DO IT, then fine.

Father God makes the rules, not the "Church", and ALL humans are (after they sinned) under sentence of DEATH anyway, unless they're Born Again and cleansed.

HEY!! God DID perform several "Ethnic Cleansings" in the Old Testament after all (people livestock, and even babies). Biblically, though, STONING is the Jewish preferred method to "Off" problem individuals and heretics (just ask Stephen - Acts 7:59).

You do realize, however, that we're in the NEW TESTAMENT these days, and the rules have changed. Remember Luke 9:54-56, where Jesus corrected his "Front team" about calling fire down. Jesus knew that they were speaking with "satanic spirit", even though they didn't realize that. Peter had the same issue, later on.

Of course, what you're really doing is trying to "Rationalize" why it's "O.K." for the "one true Church of Jesus Christ" to intermix itself with a PAGAN GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEM, as your "Religious system" did in Rome and Europe back in the day (not so much any more, although you did try to hide your over-libidinous "priests" from the law for years - until we caught you at it).
 
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If the "Theo" is Father God, and HE SAYS TO DO IT, then fine.
Thank you. Then we agree.
Father God makes the rules, not the "Church", and ALL humans are (after they sinned) under sentence of DEATH anyway, unless they're Born Again and cleansed.
But the Church is the Body of Christ. As such, the Church represents Christ. We cannot divorce the Body of Christ from Christ as you attempt to do here with your false dichotomy.

Note: I am not defending the burning of heretics today. For starters, it is not effective in stamping out heresy. If you want to ensure that a work gets read that you do not want people to read---tell them not to read it! Tell them they are forbidden to read it--and you will guarantee that the work will be on the New York times best seller list! I think the most effective way to deal with heresy today is research, and debate. Show why you think the person is wrong, let the Holy Spirit guide you, let people make up their own minds. Killing heretics or forbidding people to read heretical works simply does not work.

My overall point above---was not to defend burning heretics but to explain why we cannot create a false dichotomy between the Church, the Body of Christ, and Christ as you did. If the Church is the Body of Christ, then the word of the Church is the Word of God and visa-versa.
HEY!! God DID perform several "Ethnic Cleansings" in the Old Testament after all (people livestock, and even babies). Biblically, though, STONING is the Jewish preferred method to "Off" problem individuals and heretics (just ask Stephen - Acts 7:59).
Good. So then you think stoning heretics is more biblical than burning them.
You do realize, however, that we're in the NEW TESTAMENT these days, and the rules have changed. Remember Luke 9:54-56, where Jesus corrected his "Front team" about calling fire down. Jesus knew that they were speaking with "satanic spirit", even though they didn't realize that. Peter had the same issue, later on.
In a context where Israel is no longer a nation state, yes.

The problem is, when religion and the state are one and the same, heresy isn't just a threat to religion, it is a threat to the unity and stability of the state. That is why heretics were killed. Heresy was akin to treason. Note, even in America today, treason I think is a capital offense. However, heretics had rights. They weren't just burned. They had a trial, they were given opportunities to recant, etc. The Church did not just round up heretics and burn them.

Now, do I think we should be burning heretics today? No, of course not---even IF we lived in a theocracy or Church and state were one and the same. Why? Becasue it isn't effective. In my opinion it makes the problem worse. It makes it look like you are afraid of truth and debate. I say---open and honest debate is the best cure for heresy.
Of course, what you're really doing is trying to "Rationalize" why it's "O.K." for the "one true Church of Jesus Christ" to intermix itself with a PAGAN GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEM, as your "Religious system" did in Rome and Europe back in the day (not so much any more, although you did try to hide your over-libidinous "priests" from the law for years - until we caught you at it).
Oh, here we go with the sex abuse scandal reference. :rolleyes:

These boards, sir, are for serious academic debate. If you want to discuss the scandal, go to the "RCC Other" boards and have at it.

I prefer to keep the discussion focused on the serious issues that divide us rather than devolving into that.
 
These boards, sir, are for serious academic debate. If you want to discuss the scandal, go to the "RCC Other" boards and have at it.

In other words, you think the sub forum is a private forum where people who are not members of carm aren't able to read the conversation. Sorry romish, but ALL of carm forums, can be read by the public without being a member of carm or being logged in.

I prefer to keep the discussion focused on the serious issues that divide us rather than devolving into that.

Your not going to keep the sex scandals hidden and a secret when the stories are all over in the national news. That is how people find out about them. You will NOT find any of us non-RC's who regularly post in this forum trying to keep people on a forum from knowing about a non-RCC scandal.
 
Thank you. Then we agree.

But the Church is the Body of Christ. As such, the Church represents Christ. We cannot divorce the Body of Christ from Christ as you attempt to do here with your false dichotomy.
However, since neither the "Roman Catholic Religious system", nor any other visible denominational religious systems ARE the "Body of Christ", then my "Dichotomy" stands. The "Body of Christ" is that Spiritual body comprised EXCLUSIVELY of BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, both physically alive, and physically dead, from the beginning of creation to the present. There are MEMBERS of that Body found in most Christian assemblies in various percentages of concentration. There are born again Catholics, who are part of that ONE Body. And then there are "TARES" (Mat 13:36-43) at all levels, who are just "Catholics".
we cannot create a false dichotomy between the Church, the Body of Christ, and Christ
I agree completely!!!

The PROBLEM YOU HAVE is believing that the "Roman Catholic religious system", and the "Church / Body of Christ" is the same thing. Since they're NOT, your entire argument is dismissed. You'll disagree with that, naturally, but that's unimportant.
Good. So then you think stoning heretics is more biblical than burning them.
There's no Biblical example of "heretics" being incinerated, and plenty of examples of people being stoned for offences, real and imagined.

Mary (Jesus' mom) would have suffered that fate, if Joseph had been so inclined. I'm sure that Joseph REALLY APPRECIATED the Angel taking him of the hook, but I'll wager that the townspeople, who knew about Mary's pregnancy, and her marital status were a situation to contend with.

And of course Stephen was an ABSOLUTE HERETIC (to the Jews), and paid the price for it

in America today, treason I think is a capital offense.
Unless you're a Democrat in office.
Oh, here we go with the sex abuse scandal reference.
So why didn't the "one true body of Christ" properly and Biblically handle the situation as soon as they were aware of it???? There's INSTRUCTIONS IN THE BIBLE you know, and Paul's advice!!!
 
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However, since neither the "Roman Catholic Religious system", nor any other visible denominational religious systems ARE the "Body of Christ", then my "Dichotomy" stands. The "Body of Christ" is that Spiritual body comprised EXCLUSIVELY of BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, both physically alive, and physically dead, from the beginning of creation to the present. There are MEMBERS of that Body found in most Christian assemblies in various percentages of concentration. There are born again Catholics, who are part of that ONE Body. And then there are "TARES" (Mat 13:36-43) at all levels, who are just "Catholics".
I see. So the Body of Christ is invisible. Sir, what good is an invisible body?
I agree completely!!!
Good. Only problem is that you think the body is invisible. I don't see what good an invisible body is. God is invisible. The church is what makes God visible to the world. An invisible church cannot do that.
The PROBLEM YOU HAVE is believing that the "Roman Catholic religious system", and the "Church / Body of Christ" is the same thing.
What is that a problem? It is.
Since they're NOT, your entire argument is dismissed. You'll disagree with that, naturally, but that's unimportant.
No, sir, it is not at all unimportant. It is decidedly important. If the RCC isn't the Church of Christ, then I need to know where this Church is, where it can be found, who the members are, who the leaders are, etc.

So if the RCC isn't the Church, which is the Church?
There's no Biblical example of "heretics" being incinerated, and plenty of examples of people being stoned for offences, real and imagined.

Mary (Jesus' mom) would have suffered that fate, if Joseph had been so inclined. I'm sure that Joseph REALLY APPRECIATED the Angel taking him of the hook, but I'll wager that the townspeople, who knew about Mary's pregnancy, and her marital status were a situation to contend with.
Actually, I used to think that, but I think differently now.

The Bible says that the reason Jospeh did not want to take Mary as his wife was not because he thought she cheated on him, but because he was afraid. The angel said to Joseph "Do not be AFRAID to take Mary as your wife."

The part about Joseph being a just man who wanted to divorce her quietly then should be understood in that context. Because he feared to take Mary as his wife, he wanted to divorce her quietly so that she would not be shamed--something she did not deserve. Had she cheated on him, she would have deserved to be shamed. That would have been just and fair. Joseph, knowing that what had happened was of God, felt unworthy. The angel gave him the encouragement he needed to do it, assuring him that this is of God.
And of course, Stephen was an ABSOLUTE HERETIC (to the Jews) and paid the price for it.
Thus, stoning heretics is not unbiblical.
Unless you're a Democrat in office.
Well, we agree on that.
So why didn't the "one true body of Christ" properly and Biblically handle the situation as soon as they were aware of it???? There's INSTRUCTIONS IN THE BIBLE you know, and Paul's advice!!!
Because as I have repeatedly pointed out to you: Church and state were one and the same. Thus, heresy---not only threatens one's eternal destiny, heresy not only affects the Church, it affects the safety, security, and well-being of the state. Heresy in other words, is not just an attack on Truth, it is an attack on the state.
 
In other words, you think the sub forum is a private forum where people who are not members of carm aren't able to read the conversation. Sorry romish, but ALL of carm forums, can be read by the public without being a member of carm or being logged in.
No! I do not think that at all.

What I "think" is that the purposes of these particular boards is for academic debate. The RCC Other boards are for everything else. Thus, people who want to discuss the sex abuse scandal can take the discussion there. On these boards the scandal is a Red Herring.
Your not going to keep the sex scandals hidden and a secret when the stories are all over in the national news.
Correct--hence----why it would be manifestly stupid----of me-----to think that it will stay secret if it isn't brought up on these boards! It is anything but secret now! All people have to do if they want information---is go on Mr. Google and they can have all they want! While it isn't a secret, it isn't appropriate discussion on these boards. On these boards, it is a Red Herring.
That is how people find out about them. You will NOT find any of us non-RC's who regularly post in this forum trying to keep people on a forum from knowing about a non-RCC scandal.
And I am not asking you to do that! I am just attempting to you focused.
 
I see. So the Body of Christ is invisible. Sir, what good is an invisible body?
Chuckle!! The CHURCH IS PEOPLE (not architecture, robes, Candles, bells, smells, or fancy windows) I'm the church, and I'm VISIBLE.

My Christian Brethren and Sisters are visible, and if YOU are Born Again of the Holy Spirit, then you're "Visible" too. So what's your issue???

You didn't REALLY THINK the old ornate building on the corner is the "Church", did you??
Good. Only problem is that you think the body is invisible. I don't see what good an invisible body is. God is invisible. The church is what makes God visible to the world. An invisible church cannot do that.
But the VISIBLE PEOPLE who ARE the church can, don'cha know.
So if the RCC isn't the Church, which is the church?
Wherever two or three are gathered in HIS NAME - there HE is in the midst. and there's the CHURCH (Mat 18:20)
Actually, I used to think that, but I think differently now.

The Bible says that the reason Joseph did not want to take Mary as his wife was not because he thought she cheated on him, but because he was afraid.
That she had cheated on him, which would be the ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION for her pregnancy - other than the impossible one, that the Angel cleared up for him.
The part about Joseph being a just man who wanted to divorce her quietly then should be understood in that context. Because he feared to take Mary as his wife, he wanted to divorce her quietly so that she would not be shamed--something she did not deserve. Had she cheated on him, she would have deserved to be shamed. That would have been just and fair. Joseph, knowing that what had happened was of God, felt unworthy. The angel gave him the encouragement he needed to do it, assuring him that this is of God.
You should write fiction!!! you're good at it!!!!

GET REAL!!!! Until the Angel set him straight, Joseph's only option was to believe that she'd been unfaithful, and we both know it. That he didn't want to get her killed reflects his personal integrity and his love for her as a person!!!

Parenthetic: The Roman Catholic religious system wants its people to believe that Joseph NEVER MARRIED MARY (since she's "Eternally VIRGIN") so no joining of flesh and becoming ONE.

I get a kick out of the "OLD JOSEPH fantasy" (ever hear the "Carol of the cherry tree"??) where he's just her "Caretaker" but never her husband. And millions of Catholics actually "Buy into" all that utter foolishness!!!
Thus, stoning heretics is not unbiblical.
Don't be silly!!! Stephen was an ABSOLUTE HERETIC - to the Jews. So murdering him was just what the Sanhedrin would approve. they murdered Jesus for the same reason, since JESUS was the BIGGEST HERETIC OF ALL - made Himself equal with God!!!!!
Well, we agree on that.
Unfortunately - it'll be interesting to see how all that comes out.
Heresy in other words, is not just an attack on Truth, it is an attack on the state.
WHICH NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE CHURCH TO BEGIN WITH!!!!! HOW DARE THE "CHURCH" allow itself to be corrupted by "THE STATE"????
 
You can mock God all you want. None of that will justify killing Christians.
They were heretics, not Christians.

According to RCism, all validly baptized persons are Christians.

You cannot be a heretic without being a Christian, according to your sect:

Code of Canon Law:

“Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith.” (751)



Yeah. More jokes about killing Christians.
Heretics are not Christians.

More denial of Catholic teaching from you.

I have heard all this from devout Catholics before. I have tons of their posts saved.

YOU MISS THE POINT. I was not joking about killing "Christians" or even heretics.

I got the point. That is all you did.

"That was the mistake the Church made---we should have stoned heretics rather than burned them at the stake."

"We should not have burned heretics at the stake. We should have stoned them like they did in the OT."

It's OK. Devout Catholics make light of killing other people all the time.


What is funny is that I have never joked about killing Catholics. Must be those sacraments.
Good--cause I wasn't joking.

Oh. So you were serious about killing Christians.

Just like Hamas with the blood lust.


Justifying evil is the same everywhere we look.
I am not attempting to justify rape.

Rape is less serious than killing innocent people.


You are so down with the idea of killing Christians that you mention it repeatedly in one post.
I know that it is unfair to judge one time period in history by our own modern standards.

You don't know Christian morality which has been in stone for 2000 years?

That makes sense now.
 
I find it strange when supposed Christians from one period should not be judged by modern standards. That is false, Christians from any era are judged by the standards Jesus had. Jesus showed us how to walk and talk. Jesus never condoned harming others, in any form.

It is a cope out to say they should not be judged by modern standards, that is a cover up for evil behaviour. Just a way of justifying evil fruit.
 
According to RCism, all validly baptized persons are Christians.
What does that have to do with heretics? A heretic is someone who willfully disbelieves the Faith.
You cannot be a heretic without being a Christian, according to your sect:

Code of Canon Law:

“Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith.” (751)

And?
More denial of Catholic teaching from you.
What denial? What does this have to do with heresy and heretics?
"That was the mistake the Church made---we should have stoned heretics rather than burned them at the stake."

"We should not have burned heretics at the stake. We should have stoned them like they did in the OT."

It's OK. Devout Catholics make light of killing other people all the time.
I wasn't making light of it.
Oh. So you were serious about killing Christians.
Christians who were HERETICS.
Just like Hamas with the blood lust.
That wasn't about suppressing heresy for the purposes of ensuring unity in the empire!
Rape is less serious than killing innocent people.
Rape is horrendous. It is a crime that cries out to God for vengeance.

Heretics were not innocent people who were raped. They were Christians who refused to recant their errors and untruth when given the chance to do so.
 
According to RCism, all validly baptized persons are Christians.
What does that have to do with heretics? A heretic is someone who willfully disbelieves the Faith.

A heretic, according to your sect, is a Christian.

You cannot be a heretic without being a Christian, according to your sect:

Code of Canon Law:

“Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith.” (751)
And?

A heretic, according to your sect, is a Christian.

More denial of Catholic teaching from you.
What denial?

You denied the Catholic doctrine that heretics are Christians.


"That was the mistake the Church made---we should have stoned heretics rather than burned them at the stake."

"We should not have burned heretics at the stake. We should have stoned them like they did in the OT."

It's OK. Devout Catholics make light of killing other people all the time.
I wasn't making light of it.

Yeah. You said you were being serious.

Oh. So you were serious about killing Christians.
Christians who were HERETICS.

You said no heretics were Christians.

You cannot even get your story straight from post to post.



Rape is less serious than killing innocent people.
Rape is horrendous.

Killing Christians because they disagree with you is worse....yet that does not bother you.

But Catholics are not provided by their sect with a working moral compass, so here we are.


It is a crime that cries out to God for vengeance.

He does not take lightly to killing His people while pretending you are doing Him a service.


Heretics were not innocent people who were raped.

They were innocent Christians who were burned alive. You have zero conscience, don't you?


They were Christians

You said they were not Christians.

Which lie will it be today?
 
John 17 is about our position IN Christ
We are unified in our position IN Christ

John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—
23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

In this life, we will never be unified in our beliefs


"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Is. 55

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.…
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
St. Paul affirms that we are called to unity in belief and practice, including unity in the Christian faith in general and belief in the Triune God and the observance of baptism in particular. To achieve and maintain such unity, Jesus establishes the visible leadership structure of his one Church, lest his disciples be unwittingly led astray into salvation-jeopardizing error.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. (eph4: 4-6)
 
He does not take lightly to killing His people while pretending you are doing Him a service.
JOHN 16
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
 
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