In The Beggining

Towerwatchman said:
Sorry, that is not what the text reads. No where does it state that Jesus became better than the angles. What we have is the Son being exalted above the angels. And in vs 8-9 is the climax, where the Father addresses the Son as HO THEOS twice.


Psalms 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God [Elohim], Your God [Elohim], has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Similar to

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says:...
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God [HO THEOS], Your God [HO THEOS}, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Notice that in both the OT and the NT God uses the same identification for Himself and the one He anoints.
Elohim in the OT and HO THEOS in the NT.

How many times are you going to ignore the error in the WTS' reasoning?
If the reference that the Father being “one God” proves that Jesus is not God, then by the same logic the reference that Jesus is “one Lord” means that the Father is not “Lord”. Matt 11:25 Jesus refers to the Father as God and Lord. It is illogical to conclude from this vs. that Jesus is not God as to conclude that the Father is not Lord.

Wanna give a try?
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From the nkjv it says at heb. 1:4 having become so much better than the angels as he by inheritance obtained a name more excellent than they. It clearly states he became so much better than the angels and thus was not always better than the angels whether by nature or name.
 
Towerwatchman said:
Bad English or expression. When Jesus was exalted He did not become better.
Exalted = of a person or their rank or status) placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard.
When a captain is exalted to the rank of major, the major does not become better than the captains.

This is really bad and sad at the same time. Intent is prior to content. Yes Heb 1:8 does state that God is Jesus God, but is that all?
Therefore God [HO THEOS], Your God [HO THEOS}, has anointed You.
What a coincidence you forgot to write that along with stating that The Father says He is Jesus' God, the Father also identified Jesus as God, HO THEOS.



Really? Therefore God [Elohim], Your God [Elohim], has anointed You
When the same word that is used for YHWH is used to identify another person, the author is identifying both as YHWH.


John 20:17 "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Jesus returned to his God and to our God, he returned to his Father and our Father. But who did he return to? Who is Jesus' Father? Who is Jesus' God?

This is because of the relationship between Jesus and God vs. humanity and God. If Jesus is a created being should have addressed it as our God and our Father. Jesus said this because He is God’s Son by nature vs. humanity being God’s children by creation. Being God Jesus has a different relationship with God and the Father than man has. That is why Jesus said ‘my Father and your Father, to my God and your God', and not ‘our Father and our God.

The only record we have of Jesus ever saying 'Our Father" is when He instructed His Apostles on how to pray. Apart from this the is no record of Jesus saying 'our Father or our God",
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You said it all that when promoted one does not become better than the other person. But they become better as far as rank goes correct?
 
Towerwatchman said:
Bad English or expression. When Jesus was exalted He did not become better.
Exalted = of a person or their rank or status) placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard.
When a captain is exalted to the rank of major, the major does not become better than the captains.

This is really bad and sad at the same time. Intent is prior to content. Yes Heb 1:8 does state that God is Jesus God, but is that all?
Therefore God [HO THEOS], Your God [HO THEOS}, has anointed You.
What a coincidence you forgot to write that along with stating that The Father says He is Jesus' God, the Father also identified Jesus as God, HO THEOS.



Really? Therefore God [Elohim], Your God [Elohim], has anointed You
When the same word that is used for YHWH is used to identify another person, the author is identifying both as YHWH.


John 20:17 "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Jesus returned to his God and to our God, he returned to his Father and our Father. But who did he return to? Who is Jesus' Father? Who is Jesus' God?

This is because of the relationship between Jesus and God vs. humanity and God. If Jesus is a created being should have addressed it as our God and our Father. Jesus said this because He is God’s Son by nature vs. humanity being God’s children by creation. Being God Jesus has a different relationship with God and the Father than man has. That is why Jesus said ‘my Father and your Father, to my God and your God', and not ‘our Father and our God.

The only record we have of Jesus ever saying 'Our Father" is when He instructed His Apostles on how to pray. Apart from this the is no record of Jesus saying 'our Father or our God",
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You are twisting things to fit false dogmas. =Therefore God, your God- is speaking about God( YHWH(Jehovah) --Jesus clearly said--My God, because YHWH(Jehovah) is his God. He stressed it 4 x in a single paragraph( Rev 3:12) while sitting at the right hand of the majesty in lofty places.
 
Nathan P said:
From the nkjv it says at heb. 1:4 having become so much better than the angels as he by inheritance obtained a name more excellent than they. It clearly states he became so much better than the angels and thus was not always better than the angels whether by nature or name.
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Oh, sorry got my verses mixed up.
Nathan P said:
You said it all that when promoted one does not become better than the other person. But they become better as far as rank goes correct?
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It's true when it comes to authority, but we were discussing being.
 
keiw said:
You are twisting things to fit false dogmas. =Therefore God, your God-
is speaking about God( YHWH(Jehovah) -
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The Father said to the Son... "Therefore HO THEOS your HO THEOS as anointed you..."
Twisting what? The text is plain and clear. The Father identifies Himself and Jesus as HO THEOS.
keiw said:
-Jesus clearly said--My God, because YHWH(Jehovah) is his God.
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Multiple times Jesus addressed God as 'My God' and the Father as "MY Father' when discussing His relationship with the Father or God. Within the same parameters Jesus never said "Our God' or 'Our Father'.
In John 20:17 notice Jesus makes it explicitly clear that He has a different relationship with God and the Father in comparison to mans. "...my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Now if Jesus was creation just as us it would have been 'our God and our Father.'

keiw said:
He stressed it 4 x in a single paragraph( Rev 3:12) while sitting at the right hand of the majesty in lofty places.
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12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Same applies here 'My God' and not 'Our God'.

Jesus referring to the Father as his God does not equate that the Father is a greater being than Jesus. It is not a reference to might but relationship. Within the Trinity there is a hierarchy of relationship, Father vs Son, not a hierarchy of being. Note ‘Son’ establishes position in the hierarchy of the Trinity, not an inferior being when compared to the Father. Remember the Father addressed the Son as ‘HO THEOS = The God’ twice.
Why
Because Jesus is God.
 
Towerwatchman said:
Oh, sorry got my verses mixed up.

It's true when it comes to authority, but we were discussing being.
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The point is like you admit he was not always better than the angels when it comes to authority and thus the angels would have been as much like God as far as authority is concerned before he was made better than them.
 
Towerwatchman said:
The Father said to the Son... "Therefore HO THEOS your HO THEOS as anointed you..."
Twisting what? The text is plain and clear. The Father identifies Himself and Jesus as HO THEOS.

Multiple times Jesus addressed God as 'My God' and the Father as "MY Father' when discussing His relationship with the Father or God. Within the same parameters Jesus never said "Our God' or 'Our Father'.
In John 20:17 notice Jesus makes it explicitly clear that He has a different relationship with God and the Father in comparison to mans. "...my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Now if Jesus was creation just as us it would have been 'our God and our Father.'


12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Same applies here 'My God' and not 'Our God'.

Jesus referring to the Father as his God does not equate that the Father is a greater being than Jesus. It is not a reference to might but relationship. Within the Trinity there is a hierarchy of relationship, Father vs Son, not a hierarchy of being. Note ‘Son’ establishes position in the hierarchy of the Trinity, not an inferior being when compared to the Father. Remember the Father addressed the Son as ‘HO THEOS = The God’ twice.
Why
Because Jesus is God.
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Rev 1:1 proves your error--A revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him= 2 beings here-The giver is the one true God, the receiver is Jesus, thus not the one true God.
 
keiw said:
John 7:3Rev 1:1 proves your error--A revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him= 2 beings here-The giver is the one true God, the receiver is Jesus, thus not the one true God.
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If this is the only verse we have that addresses the subject matter you might have a case. But against the backdrop of scripture your argument fails.

Let's stick to book of revelation.
Rev 21:5-7 Then He who sat on the throne {Jesus Rev 22:1} said, “Behold, I make all things new.” [And He said] to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” And He said to me, “It is done! {Jesus Jn 19:30] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. [Jesus Rev 22:13} I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.[Jesus Jn 7:37-38]. 7 He who overcomes [Jesus 2:7,11,17,26, 3:512,21] shall inherit all things, and I [Jesus] will be his God [THEOS] and he shall be My son.

Jesus explicitly states that He is God.
 
Towerwatchman said:
If this is the only verse we have that addresses the subject matter you might have a case. But against the backdrop of scripture your argument fails.

Let's stick to book of revelation.
Rev 21:5-7 Then He who sat on the throne {Jesus Rev 22:1} said, “Behold, I make all things new.” [And He said] to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” And He said to me, “It is done! {Jesus Jn 19:30] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. [Jesus Rev 22:13} I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.[Jesus Jn 7:37-38]. 7 He who overcomes [Jesus 2:7,11,17,26, 3:512,21] shall inherit all things, and I [Jesus] will be his God [THEOS] and he shall be My son.

Jesus explicitly states that He is God.
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You are very mistaken. Jehovah said some of those words.
 
Towerwatchman said:
Where in the verse is the Father identified as the speaker? Or anyone other than Jesus?
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After rev 20--this occurs-1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself--Jehovah speaks at rev 22--see 22:3--the throne of God( Jehovah) and his lamb( Jesus)--see Jesus is not called God there. There is only 1 God=Jehovah.
 
keiw said:
After rev 20--this occurs-1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself--Jehovah speaks at rev 22--see 22:3--the throne of God( Jehovah) and his lamb( Jesus)--see Jesus is not called God there. There is only 1 God=Jehovah.
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There are two sitting on the throne, God, and the lamb. For the text we can identify the speaker by connecting what the speaker says. Everything the speaker says was spoken by Jesus. Therefore the speaker is Jesus. I do not need to go to Corinthians to figure out who is speaking. Jesus identifies himself as God explicitly.
 
Towerwatchman said:
There are two sitting on the throne, God, and the lamb. For the text we can identify the speaker by connecting what the speaker says. Everything the speaker says was spoken by Jesus. Therefore the speaker is Jesus. I do not need to go to Corinthians to figure out who is speaking. Jesus identifies himself as God explicitly.
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The lamb is on a separate throne. He sits at the right hand of the majesty in lofty places. Appointed as king by one superior to him.
 
keiw said:
The lamb is on a separate throne. He sits at the right hand of the majesty in lofty places. Appointed as king by one superior to him.
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They are both sitting on the same throne
22:1 1And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb

3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Seems scripture disagrees.
 
Towerwatchman said:
They are both sitting on the same throne
22:1 1And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb

3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Seems scripture disagrees.

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Rev 20:4 explains your 3:21--thrones--They sat on their own thrones just as Jesus did. The anointed=the little flock=144,000=the bride of Christ. Jehovah owns all the thrones.
 
keiw said:
Rev 20:4 explains your 3:21--thrones--They sat on their own thrones just as Jesus did. The anointed=the little flock=144,000=the bride of Christ. Jehovah owns all the thrones.
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Red herring. The topic is who is speaking in the passage. That would be Jesus and He said He is God.
 
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