In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were unable to bear children. (not true)

CrowCross

Well-known member
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were immortal and unable to bear children. When they fell, mortality and procreation began. Thus, they partook of the fruit in order to bear children. mormon reference

Thing is....
In Gen 1 we read....28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”

Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth....means have kids.

But, as mentioned above the mormons falsely teach Adam and Eve had to first disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....so procreation could begin.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Nothing about having children...as that lie is made up by the mormons.
 
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were immortal and unable to bear children. When they fell, mortality and procreation began. Thus, they partook of the fruit in order to bear children. mormon reference

Thing is....
In Gen 1 we read....28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”

Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth....means have kids.

But, as mentioned above the mormons falsely teach Adam and Eve had to first disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....so procreation could begin.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Nothing about having children...as that lie is made up by the mormons.

I'm not sure why you find this significant, but I do have a question about your post:

How does someone who wasn't even aware they were naked--understand the intimacies of a sexual relation?

Where are any children mentioned in the Garden?

I understand that does not prove any particular point--but neither does your approach. But it does allow us to consider some alternative to ignorance.

What we do know is Adam and Eve had not been made mortal in the Garden, and that they were man and wife. No children were mentioned, while in the Garden. They didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, but they became like God--to know good and evil--by partaking of the fruit. It was also pronounced it was not good for man to be alone--and the creation of a physical woman occurred, etc.

I'm not sure of all the implications there, but for me--it does imply the eternal nature of marriage, and the importance of man and woman--and the importance of knowing good and evil--and that principle is endemic to becoming like God, exercising our own agency, and becoming what we really desire to be--through God's grace.

It also is a thought that if God knew ahead of time they were going to eat of the fruit(and He did)--then why did He put the tree there? For me--there had to be an overriding objective in that.

Think about it--God planting a tree there He knew would be the ruination of mankind?(as the critics sometimes claim). That's like placing a gun before your children, knowing they would shoot themselves with it.

There has to be a better explanation than one which implicates God--and the LDS teach it. That is--the Garden of Eden--and what transpired there--offered mankind an opportunity to become like God, to know good and evil--and become what we really are, or --desire to be. It was part of His plan--and came out of His love for His children--that He would share with His children--what He possessed. Pure love, IMO.

I say--what a beautiful, perfect plan--as is endemic of all of God's plans. I'm thankful for Adam and Eve--and rejoice in their story. That gave me an opportunity to be here--and feel the love of God in my life. Glory be to God!
 
I'm not sure why you find this significant, but I do have a question about your post:
You should find it significant...because mormon theology is wrong in this instance....and from that it's a pretty easy setp to show other portions of mormon theology are incorrect.
How does someone who wasn't even aware they were naked--understand the intimacies of a sexual relation?
I don't understand why Adam and Eve couldn't have the intimacies of a sexual relation prior to the fall. God told them to be fruitful and multiply....did He not?

Being aware of nakedness....what ever form that took...doesn't mean you couldn't have known and understood the intimacies of a sexual relation. In fact prior to the fall one could suggest it was much more intimate.
Where are any children mentioned in the Garden?
No children were mentioned in the bible as being in the garden with Adam and Eve.
Does this mean Adam and Eve didn't have sexual relation? You seem to be hinting at...yes. Adam and Eve had no sexual relation while in the garden.
The lack of children would only indicate Eve didn't become pregnant or they were not in the garden for a long period of time prior to the fall.
I understand that does not prove any particular point--but neither does your approach. But it does allow us to consider some alternative to ignorance.
My point is God would not tell them to procreate...be fruitful and multiply...but in order to do that you must disobey me and eat from the tree I told you not to eat from.
What we do know is Adam and Eve had not been made mortal in the Garden, and that they were man and wife. No children were mentioned, while in the Garden. They didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, but they became like God--to know good and evil--by partaking of the fruit. It was also pronounced it was not good for man to be alone--and the creation of a physical woman occurred, etc.
That has nothing to do with the ability to have children in the garden.
I'm not sure of all the implications there, but for me--it does imply the eternal nature of marriage, and the importance of man and woman--and the importance of knowing good and evil--and that principle is endemic to becoming like God, exercising our own agency, and becoming what we really desire to be--through God's grace.
When I read your response I think...how serpent in nature. How you bought into the exact same thing Eve bought into when she was deceived prior to Adam eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
That is "exercising our own agency, and becoming what we really desire to be"...that is, like god, doing what we want to do regardless of what the Creators will for us is.
It also is a thought that if God knew ahead of time they were going to eat of the fruit(and He did)--then why did He put the tree there? For me--there had to be an overriding objective in that.
Why did God plant the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?....Many suggest it was some form of a test, some suggest it was a probation period for Adam and Eve. Some say it was to see if given the choice Adam and Eve would choose God over self exercising their our own agency, and becoming what they really desired to be rather than what God wanted them to be.

Think about it--God planting a tree there He knew would be the ruination of mankind?(as the critics sometimes claim). That's like placing a gun before your children, knowing they would shoot themselves with it.
It wasn't necessarly the tree but rather disobeying God. God could have instead said...you can choose to sit anywhere in the Garden, but don't sit on that rock.
The sin was disobedience as demonstrated by eating the fruit.
The correct way of saying it is that God made Adam and Eve knowing they would be disobedient when tempted and deceived.
Adam and Eve exercised their own agency and in doing so disobeyed God.
There has to be a better explanation than one which implicates God--and the LDS teach it. That is--the Garden of Eden--and what transpired there--offered mankind an opportunity to become like God, to know good and evil--and become what we really are, or --desire to be. It was part of His plan--and came out of His love for His children--that He would share with His children--what He possessed. Pure love, IMO.
How is mankind falling into a state of depravity...where God compares us to a filthy menstrual rag...spiritually dead and disconnected from God, condemned to hell for an eternity....Pure Love?
I say--what a beautiful, perfect plan--as is endemic of all of God's plans. I'm thankful for Adam and Eve--and rejoice in their story. That gave me an opportunity to be here--and feel the love of God in my life. Glory be to God!
I find it ironic that a sect of people who are proclaiming the need for following Gods commands and ordinances to qualify to receive eternal life...exaltation...consider the act of disobediance by Adam and Eve was a good thing.

Keep in mind, you never did answer really reply to the post "

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were unable to bear children. (not true)"​

 
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were immortal and unable to bear children. When they fell, mortality and procreation began. Thus, they partook of the fruit in order to bear children. mormon reference

Thing is....
In Gen 1 we read....28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”

Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth....means have kids.

But, as mentioned above the mormons falsely teach Adam and Eve had to first disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....so procreation could begin.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Nothing about having children...as that lie is made up by the mormons.
I'm not sure if there is any definite resolution to this argument based on a lack of evidence. Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve had children prior to eating of the fruit?

We do get a hint of the degree of innocence Adam and Eve had when it says "25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." But to your credit, that doesn't necessarily mean "innocence" and "child bearing" are mutually exclusive. However, just out of observation, I've yet to meet a little child that has no shame in being naked also have an interest in sex.

If the consequence of partaking of the fruit for Eve was to have multiplied sorrow in conception and bring forth children (Gen 3:16) was child bearing less sorrowful prior to the fall? What do you think changed here?
 
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I'm not sure if there is any definite resolution to this argument based on a lack of evidence. Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve had children prior to eating of the fruit?
The bible doesn't say Adam and Eve had children prior to the act of disobedience.
We do get a hint of the degree of innocence Adam and Eve had when it says "25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." But to your credit, that doesn't necessarily mean "innocence" and "child bearing" are mutually exclusive. However, just out of observation, I've yet to meet a little child that has no shame in being naked also have an interest in sex.
OK, but that doesn't mean Adam and Eve couldn't have been fruitful and multiplied as God told them to be.
The bible doesn't even hint at Adam and Eve not being able to have children prior to their act of disobedience.

That mormon based "theology" is not biblical as the bible does not tell us that Adam and Eve could not have children prior to the fall.
It does stand to reason Adam and Eve could have children as in an unfallen state they were told to be fruitful and multiply.
If the consequence of partaking of the fruit for Eve was to have multiplied sorrow in conception and bring forth children (Gen 3:16) was child bearing less sorrowful prior to the fall? What do you think changed here?
What the bible says is...."
“I will sharply increase your pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forth children."

We don't know how much pain a pre-fallen Eve would have experienced....as the bible says "increase". Increase indicates there would have been a level of pain prior to the fall.

In an unbiblical fashion the mormon "theology" adds to what scripture tells us.
 
My point is God would not tell them to procreate...be fruitful and multiply...but in order to do that you must disobey me and eat from the tree I told you not to eat from.
Sure he would. Isn't that entire crux of your entire Christian theology - that God gave us a law impossible to keep by our own merits?
 
Sure he would. Isn't that entire crux of your entire Christian theology - that God gave us a law impossible to keep by our own merits?
It is against the nature of God to instruct Adam and Eve to sin.
What kind of God would say "don't eat from that tree"...then desire Adam and Eve to eat from the tree in an act of disobedience?
Twisting the scripture in that fashion is Satanic in nature.
 
I'm not sure if there is any definite resolution to this argument based on a lack of evidence. Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve had children prior to eating of the fruit?

We do get a hint of the degree of innocence Adam and Eve had when it says "25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." But to your credit, that doesn't necessarily mean "innocence" and "child bearing" are mutually exclusive. However, just out of observation, I've yet to meet a little child that has no shame in being naked also have an interest in sex.

If the consequence of partaking of the fruit for Eve was to have multiplied sorrow in conception and bring forth children (Gen 3:16) was child bearing less sorrowful prior to the fall? What do you think changed here?
Being childlike in innocence means being without guile and sin. It has nothing to do with being naked or having sex. There was nothing sinful about that. And they weren‘t children.

Pain in childbirth was a consequence of sin and becoming mortal.

Since God commanded them to reproduce in the garden, I have to believe that childbirth there would not have been painful.
 
It is against the nature of God to instruct Adam and Eve to sin.
I'm not sure if anyone has made the argument that God instructed them to sin.
They had to leave the Garden of Eden by their own choice.
Thus, Adam transgressed the law. Mormons also say "When Adam fell, he fell forward."
If Adam had never left the garden, he would have never faced the opposition of mortality and be able to grow spiritually. It was central to the plan. But the plan requires our own free will and choice to participate.

It's no different than us choosing to accept Christ, with the realization afterward that if we left him "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Mark 14.21) Or marriage for that matter. We all do things that are within our nature, without realizing the burden of the consequences. God just gave us the agency to choose.

What kind of God would say "don't eat from that tree"...then desire Adam and Eve to eat from the tree in an act of disobedience?
Twisting the scripture in that fashion is Satanic in nature.
The same God that commanded "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" to men to have un-regenerated hearts.
If I'm wrong here, eg."twisting scripture", please point out how. I'm not attempted to be deceptive in any way.

Did God give commandments to men that they were unable to keep in righteousness? Yes or no?
 
Being childlike in innocence means being without guile and sin. It has nothing to do with being naked or having sex.
If that's true, then why are those subjects mentioned in the genesis account? Just random irrelevant side notes?
There was nothing sinful about that. And they weren‘t children.
Children is a relative term. Is this yet another thread spawning with no conclusion? If not how old were they exactly? Can it be proven either way? I don't think there's an answer.
I simply illustrate the reality of human nature and correlation of behaviors. Those with the innocence of little children, who have no shame being naked, also show no interest in having sex. Are you aware of anything different?
Pain in childbirth was a consequence of sin and becoming mortal.
Right, so that's my question. Was childbirth prior to the fall pain-free? I'm curious to know what changed.
Since God commanded them to reproduce in the garden, I have to believe that childbirth there would not have been painful.
I would tend to agree. I just can't imagine how that works.
 
I'm not sure if anyone has made the argument that God instructed them to sin.
They had to leave the Garden of Eden by their own choice.
My bible says..."23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden"...thyat doesn't sound like it was their own choice.
Thus, Adam transgressed the law. Mormons also say "When Adam fell, he fell forward."
That sounds satanic....as the Bible doesn't even come close to suggesting that.
If Adam had never left the garden, he would have never faced the opposition of mortality and be able to grow spiritually. It was central to the plan. But the plan requires our own free will and choice to participate.
That opinion is based upon what???
It's no different than us choosing to accept Christ, with the realization afterward that if we left him "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Mark 14.21) Or marriage for that matter. We all do things that are within our nature, without realizing the burden of the consequences. God just gave us the agency to choose.
Judas was a believer? Where does the Bible teach that the son of perdition was ever saved?
The same God that commanded "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" to men to have un-regenerated hearts.
If I'm wrong here, eg."twisting scripture", please point out how. I'm not attempted to be deceptive in any way.
Mormons have unregenerate hearts. They are polytheistic.
Did God give commandments to men that they were unable to keep in righteousness? Yes or no?
 
If that's true, then why are those subjects mentioned in the genesis account? Just random irrelevant side notes?
They were naked, but it wasn’t sinful. And there was no need to be ashamed.

Children is a relative term. Is this yet another thread spawning with no conclusion? If not how old were they exactly? Can it be proven either way? I don't think there's an answer.
They were apparently old enough to have children, since God commanded them to procreate.

I simply illustrate the reality of human nature and correlation of behaviors. Those with the innocence of little children, who have no shame being naked, also show no interest in having sex. Are you aware of anything different?
Is sex sinful?

Right, so that's my question. Was childbirth prior to the fall pain-free? I'm curious to know what changed.
They became mortal. Human childbirth is painful. Being mortal is painful.

I would tend to agree. I just can't imagine how that works.
Do you really need all the answers to believe and trust God? He said His thoughts are not ours and His ways are not ours. I’m ok with that.
 
Mormons have unregenerate hearts. They are polytheistic.

LOL!!! Crow--I really like reading your posts--they have a lot of humor in them.

So--do you believe God also has an unregenerate heart?

John 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be
 
LOL!!! Crow--I really like reading your posts--they have a lot of humor in them.

So--do you believe God also has an unregenerate heart?
Why would God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have an unregenerate heart?

Perhaps you should get back to the OP...and answer that.
 
Being childlike in innocence means being without guile and sin. It has nothing to do with being naked or having sex. There was nothing sinful about that. And they weren‘t children.

Pain in childbirth was a consequence of sin and becoming mortal.

Since God commanded them to reproduce in the garden, I have to believe that childbirth there would not have been painful.
I don't really see the mormons answering this issue...
 
Right, so that's my question. Was childbirth prior to the fall pain-free? I'm curious to know what changed.
As I posted earlier the Bible says the pain was "increased"...sharply.
This would indicate that a pre-fallen birth had an element of pain.

What changed? the Bible is silent and we can only speculate.

Pain in childbirth doesn't negate being able to have children pre-fall.
 
What were Adam and Eve before they became mortal? Were they immortal?
Once agin the Bible is silent and all we can do is speculate....the Bible said that they would die. Gen 2:17.

Did they die? Yes. Spiritually yes.....physically? No.
Why not physically? Once again speculating...as we know God may have covered their sins with the animal being a type of Christ who died in their place...And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and He clothed them. (Gen 3:21)

Perhaps they died like a cut rose that is placed into a vase....it remains "alive" or fresh...but over time wilts.

Some even believe that to remain immortal Adam and Eve had to eat from the tree of life....and when they were banished from the garden they could not return and eat from the tree of life.
 
My bible says..."23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden"...thyat doesn't sound like it was their own choice.
Right. It was a consequence of their choice of eating the fruit.
That sounds satanic....as the Bible doesn't even come close to suggesting that.
Really, I'm pretty sure the moral of the story is:
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
That opinion is based upon what???
2 Nephi 2
Maybe this a missing plain and previous truth.
Judas was a believer? Where does the Bible teach that the son of perdition was ever saved?
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
Mormons have unregenerate hearts. They are polytheistic.
As hom. This is what happens when the point cant be refuted.
 
They were naked, but it wasn’t sinful. And there was no need to be ashamed.
And yet they didn't feel that way after they partook of the fruit.
They were apparently old enough to have children, since God commanded them to procreate.
I don't believe the command was strictly verbal. I think it explains man's desire to procreate.
Is sex sinful?
It certainly can be. (Fornication/Adultery, etc.)
They became mortal. Human childbirth is painful. Being mortal is painful.
Yeah, since we don't have any immortal person giving birth for comparison theres not much we can expect to accomplish on this topic.
Do you really need all the answers to believe and trust God?
No, I really don't. But here we are talking about these odd topics. It's to have something different for a change.
He said His thoughts are not ours and His ways are not ours. I’m ok with that.
Amen
 
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