Indicatives (Promises) and Imperatives (Commands)

[guest1]

I always enjoy reading your self-reflections.

Note everyone @civic's continual question dodging. ?

No you have no intention in an honest dialogue since you only ask questions and never answer them or discuss passages. Your track record speaks for itself. I dialogue with those who desire to have an actual discussion instead of insults.

So until you start engaging in the texts and OP's don't expect anything to change with you on my end. I'm not into games. You seem to enjoy them.

 

[Howie]

No you have no intention in an honest dialogue since you only ask questions and never answer them or discuss passages.

You have no interest in honest dialogue. You continually dodge my questions as anyone who reads our exchanges can plainly see.

Your track record speaks for itself.

As your question dodging track record speaks to your question dodging. You have no interest in dialogue.

I dialogue with those who desire to have an actual discussion instead of insults.

Me too.

 

[Ladodgers6]

LA,

I said nothing about a pre-conversion state of being. The article said that biblically, "sanctification is not a matter of holiness as an end in itself." Nothing could be further from the truth. Sanctification is a post-conversion process and event, so in the first place, my comments were not about our lives before Christ. Secondly, Wesley said that "All holiness is social holiness", meaning that holiness is an outward expression of our inner being; it is the public manifestation of what Christ has done in our lives and how we are growing more and more like him.

Nothing, absolutely nothing about sanctification is accomplished in our own power, but only by "living according to the Spirit"! Now the "living" part is our responsibility and our prerogative, and the power by which we choose to live is either according to "the flesh" or "the Spirit". Paul clearly states that " the full requirements of the law" can be met in us if we live according to the Spirit and not the sinful nature. (Rom 8:1-4) It is only his power that allows us to live in holiness.

Again, the whole of your argument, or that of the article you posted, is in the context of what we are in Christ, not what we are before Christ. So why you think I am talking about "ungodly sinners", is beyond me.


Doug

Will you indulge me and answer my questions and points, so that I can provide a whole picture?

 

[TibiasDad]

Will you indulge me and answer my questions and points, so that I can provide a whole picture?

LA,

I'm not sure that is necessary, for I agree that we are not saved by works of law in any sense of understanding. I believe your objection is wrong footed because you are arguing against something I did not say, nor have I ever said it. I'm not trying to be obnoxious, nor am I trying to avoid any particular point of questioning, but I can't go on with a conversation if we're not on the same footing. I'm trying to establish our points of agreement before tackling where we may differ, such as what sanctification means, and its importance to our standing in Christ both now and in the future.


Doug

 

[guest1]

LA,

I'm not sure that is necessary, for I agree that we are not saved by works of law in any sense of understanding. I believe your objection is wrong footed because you are arguing against something I did not say, nor have I ever said it. I'm not trying to be obnoxious, nor am I trying to avoid any particular point of questioning, but I can't go on with a conversation if we're not on the same footing. I'm trying to establish our points of agreement before tackling where we may differ, such as what sanctification means, and its importance to our standing in Christ both now and in the future.


Doug

ditto

 

[Ladodgers6]

LA,

I'm not sure that is necessary, for I agree that we are not saved by works of law in any sense of understanding. I believe your objection is wrong footed because you are arguing against something I did not say, nor have I ever said it. I'm not trying to be obnoxious, nor am I trying to avoid any particular point of questioning, but I can't go on with a conversation if we're not on the same footing. I'm trying to establish our points of agreement before tackling where we may differ, such as what sanctification means, and its importance to our standing in Christ both now and in the future.


Doug

I do think it's necessary, because it's in the detail. Rome believes and teaches sinners are saved by Grace Alone, until one looks at the fine print. That's why they had indulgences, but still have purgatory. They also teach that one can lose their justification at 1:00 pm through sin, until confession and repentance, then regain their justification. So yes, it is necessary, Tibias.

Why is it so hard you guys present it, and define it for us? I keep asking over and over for 2 reasons: 1) So that I do not caricature your position, and 2) So, I can get it from the horse's mouth.

You guys deny Christ's Imputation, correct? And Adam's Imputation of Sin, too, right? So once again that you define & explain how an ungodly sinner is justified before a Holy God? Please define it as much as possible. If this is a crucial topic for you, can you define? And use Scripture, please.

Can a justified person lose their justification? How? Is there a second stage of Justification a person must have? Do you guys believe in purgatory? Since you guys deny Christ's Imputed Righteousness, on what basis is an ungodly sinner justified?

Can you define Justification & Sanctification for me? Are they the same thing in your paradigm? I keep asking these questions for clarification. But I keep getting the run around. I just don't see the issue here Doug.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

LA,

I'm not sure that is necessary, for I agree that we are not saved by works of law in any sense of understanding. I believe your objection is wrong footed because you are arguing against something I did not say, nor have I ever said it. I'm not trying to be obnoxious, nor am I trying to avoid any particular point of questioning, but I can't go on with a conversation if we're not on the same footing. I'm trying to establish our points of agreement before tackling where we may differ, such as what sanctification means, and its importance to our standing in Christ both now and in the future.


Doug

Doug, I am trying to understand your position. And I already know if I don't start at the beginning, we will caricature each other. I am simply asking if you will define Justification of the sinner? This is for me to get clarification, then I can follow along with you to the next step of sanctification, fair enough? If you do believe in the Doctrine of Justification of the Reformers, then great. If, you do not hold to the Reformation of Faith Alone, then let's discuss it. Because this dummy (me) needs the bouncing balls to follow along.

I believe I asked you how you deal these those passages. Someone else when presented with those passages, just avoided them. So, I am trying my best to understand your position, but you guys are not making it easy. I believe I am not asking for much, just an explanation of your view of Justification & Sanctification.

If you don't want to, that's a whole different story. Let me know, thanks Doug.​

 

[fltom]

Doug, I am trying to understand your position. And I already know if I don't start at the beginning, we will caricature each other. I am simply asking if you will define Justification of the sinner? This is for me to get clarification, then I can follow along with you to the next step of sanctification, fair enough? If you do believe in the Doctrine of Justification of the Reformers, then great. If, you do not hold to the Reformation of Faith Alone, then let's discuss it. Because this dummy (me) needs the bouncing balls to follow along.

I believe I asked you how you deal these those passages. Someone else when presented with those passages, just avoided them. So, I am trying my best to understand your position, but you guys are not making it easy. I believe I am not asking for much, just an explanation of your view of Justification & Sanctification.

If you don't want to, that's a whole different story. Let me know, thanks Doug.​

From an Arminian viewpoint

B. Justification and Sanctification

The nature of sanctification is revealed by a series of contrasts between justification and sanctification. Some of these distinctions are as follows:
1. Justification in a broad sense has reference to the whole work of Christ wrought for us; sanctification, the whole work wrought in us by the Holy Spirit.
2. Justification is a judicial act in the mind of God; sanctification, a spiritual change wrought in the hearts of men.
3. Justification is a relative change, that is, a change in relation from condemnation to favor; sanctification, an inward change from sin to holiness.
4. Justification secures for us the remission of actual sins; sanctification, in its complete sense, cleanses the heart
from original sin or inherited depravity.
5. Justification removes the guilt of sin, sanctification destroys its power.
6. Justification makes possible adoption into the family of God; sanctification restores the image of God.
7. Justification gives a title to heaven, sanctification, a fitness for heaven.
8. Justification logically precedes sanctification, which in its initial stage, is concomitant with it.
9. Justification is an instantaneous and completed act, and therefore does not take place in stages, or by degrees; sanctification is marked by progressiveness in that partial or initial sanctification occurs at the time of justification, and entire sanctification occurs subsequent to justification. Both initial and entire sanctification, however, are instantaneous acts wrought in the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit.


H. Orton Wiley and Paul T. Culbertson, Introduction to Christian Theology (Kansas City, MO: Beacon Hill Press of Kansas City, 1946), 312–313.

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug, I am trying to understand your position. And I already know if I don't start at the beginning, we will caricature each other. I am simply asking if you will define Justification of the sinner? This is for me to get clarification, then I can follow along with you to the next step of sanctification, fair enough? If you do believe in the Doctrine of Justification of the Reformers, then great. If, you do not hold to the Reformation of Faith Alone, then let's discuss it. Because this dummy (me) needs the bouncing balls to follow along.

I believe I asked you how you deal these those passages. Someone else when presented with those passages, just avoided them. So, I am trying my best to understand your position, but you guys are not making it easy. I believe I am not asking for much, just an explanation of your view of Justification & Sanctification.

If you don't want to, that's a whole different story. Let me know, thanks Doug.​

LA,

I believe in Justification by faith alone. There is no purgatory.

Justification is the act whereby we are legally separated from the guilt of our sin through forgiveness and faith in the blood of Christ.

We are incapable of earning, meriting or obligating God to save us by our actions. Salvation is a gift of grace which we could never merit.

Sanctification is both a setting apart for God’s use, and a purification from sin’s stains, power and ultimate control. It is God transforming us into the image of Christ, whereby we are pure even as he is pure. Sanctification is a corporate action, relying on both our “living according to the Spirit” and not the sinful nature and the cleansing power of the Spirit. This process is ongoing, and is aimed at fulfilling the ultimate requirement and objective to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, soul and strength, and thus to be holy as he is holy. Without holiness no one shall see the Lord.

This is not sinless perfection, but is an ever increasing abandonment of our desires to embrace fully the desires and will of God, and to exhibit consistently the righteousness of Christ in our behaviors. Absolute freedom from sin will be a heavenly realization, and the possibility of sin is always present in this temporal existence.

We are, however, not subservient to sin, because Christ’s death and resurrection has made possible that “the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Rom 8:1-4)


Doug

 

[Ladodgers6]

LA,

I believe in Justification by faith alone. There is no purgatory.

Doug, thanks for sharing with me.

Justification is the act whereby we are legally separated from the guilt of our sin through forgiveness and faith in the blood of Christ.

So, no obedience from anyone is required here? Jesus says in John 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. So, obedience is required to enter into heaven. This is the only way God can be the Just and the Justifier. And to be righteous has to come through the Law through obedience. But Paul says no that is impossible for the ungodly sinner.​

​

We are incapable of earning, meriting or obligating God to save us by our actions. Salvation is a gift of grace which we could never merit.

Exactly! We cannot merit anything to hold God in a debt owed through our works of the Law. But regardless, that we cannot, the Law must be fulfilled perfectly.

John 5:17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Christ here states that he came not to abolish the or the Prophets, but to fulfill them; meaning fulfilling them with perfect obedience, for not an iota (extremely small amount) or not a dot will pass from the Law (unfinished, or unfulfilled with obedience) until "ALL" is accomplished.

We are the ones who are falsely accused of Antinomianism regard to providing the necessary obedience to the Law to be righteous. It has to come from us or by our representative representing us, as in the first Adam all were condemned by One Man's act of disobedience. And so, by the One man's Obedience many were made righteous through His righteousness (imputed; credited; given; reckoned righteousness as a free gift received through Faith Alone apart from any of our works. One way or other the Law must be fulfilled so that we can enter heaven. ​

Sanctification is both a setting apart for God’s use, and a purification from sin’s stains, power and ultimate control. It is God transforming us into the image of Christ, whereby we are pure even as he is pure. Sanctification is a corporate action, relying on both our “living according to the Spirit” and not the sinful nature and the cleansing power of the Spirit. This process is ongoing, and is aimed at fulfilling the ultimate requirement and objective to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, soul and strength, and thus to be holy as he is holy. Without holiness no one shall see the Lord.

I see you have more to write about in Sanctification than Justification, just an observation. I agree with you that we are being conformed to the image of the Son, everyday. I do believe we must repent everyday. I do believe we have been set apart by God in Christ. I also believe that Sanctification is a "Free Gift" just as much as "The righteousness of God" imputed to us.

John 17:19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

1 Cor. 1: 30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

Only His righteousness & Holiness can merit & fulfill what God demands. Our works as believers will not stand in God's judgement, apart from Christ and all heavenly blessings. You can try like those who say, Lord, Lord, haven't we done these things?​

This is not sinless perfection, but is an ever increasing abandonment of our desires to embrace fully the desires and will of God, and to exhibit consistently the righteousness of Christ in our behaviors. Absolute freedom from sin will be a heavenly realization, and the possibility of sin is always present in this temporal existence.

Amen, but this will not be the ground or basis of our entering into heaven. We have been Sanctified and are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. As I said before we do not deny the Sanctification of the believer to perform good works but affirm it in our confessions. We are not Antinomians, but on the contrary, we uphold the Law. As you can see, and I hope you understand what we believe now. I am condoning to live in sin? Am I saying that's okay to continue to sin? God forbid?

But we both agree that, "We are incapable of earning, meriting or obligating God to save us by our actions. Salvation is a gift of grace which we could never merit." We are saved apart from the Law by the righteousness of God that is now manifested apart from the Law to all those who believe. God "justifies" the ungodly, Doug, not the righteous man, or holy man, or a believer on their good fruits. But because they who do not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. This faith only receives in trusting God in what He did in Christ, and in His proclamation promise. ​

We are, however, not subservient to sin, because Christ’s death and resurrection has made possible that “the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Rom 8:1-4)

Doug

Amen! Here's more Scripture: 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.

This clearly, "For God has done," by sending His Son in the flesh, because as our representative he has to fulfill, what the first Adam failed to do in the flesh. So now sin and the righteous requirement of the law both have to be fulfilled in the flesh. Christ condemns sin in his as propitiating Atonement, and fulfills the Law through His perfect law-keeping (this is the positive righteousness we need to enter heaven).

Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.(1 Cor. 1:30; the wisdom from God) 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God (Imputed Righteousness of Christ), and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (he fulfilled it all for his people) to everyone who believes.

Romans 6:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Grace: is given freely to the undeserved without any due obligations or debts owed by God to the ungodly; it's free.

Works: are wages that not counted as free, but a debt owed; earned; merited.

Thanks again for sharing, hope you are feeling well these days. Let's go Dodgers!

Good day my friend!

@Carbon @eternomade ​

 

[TibiasDad]

So, no obedience from anyone is required here? Jesus says in John 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. So, obedience is required to enter into heaven. This is the only way God can be the Just and the Justifier. And to be righteous has to come through the Law through obedience. But Paul says no that is impossible for the ungodly sinner.

I was only saying that we are justified by faith, not by works. I wasn't making any statement about whether obedience is necessary for heaven. But yes, obedience is necessary to enter heaven. At first, our obedience is only to believe in him, but after regeneration/the indwelling of the Spirit, we have been set free from the law of sin and death, and are now able to deny the sinful nature to which we have died, both by the imputation of the death of Christ wherein we are said to be crucified with Christ, and by impartation of a real transformation of who and what we are by being in Christ. This real transformation changes how we think and see the world, and thus changes our behaviors and attitudes. In short, we are able and expected to be obedient to what Christ has commanded, namely, to love others as he has loved us! As Paul says, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:12-13)

Obedience matters!

I see you have more to write about in Sanctification than Justification, just an observation.

Justification is not as complex as sanctification is; we are justified by faith. Justification is a punctiliar event, sanctification is an on going process with punctiliar events of progress within that process.

I agree with you that we are being conformed to the image of the Son, everyday. I do believe we must repent everyday. I do believe we have been set apart by God in Christ. I also believe that Sanctification is a "Free Gift" just as much as "The righteousness of God" imputed to us.

I wouldn't say repent, per se, but rather we must submit to the Lordship of Christ everyday, picking up our cross daily and following him in obedience. If we have sinned, yes, repentance is needed. But we are called to "not sin", but if we do, which is expected to become an increasing rarity, we have an advocate with the Father.

I too agree that sanctification is a free gift granted by faith.


Doug

 

[guest1]

I was only saying that we are justified by faith, not by works. I wasn't making any statement about whether obedience is necessary for heaven. But yes, obedience is necessary to enter heaven. At first, our obedience is only to believe in him, but after regeneration/the indwelling of the Spirit, we have been set free from the law of sin and death, and are now able to deny the sinful nature to which we have died, both by the imputation of the death of Christ wherein we are said to be crucified with Christ, and by impartation of a real transformation of who and what we are by being in Christ. This real transformation changes how we think and see the world, and thus changes our behaviors and attitudes. In short, we are able and expected to be obedient to what Christ has commanded, namely, to love others as he has loved us! As Paul says, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:12-13)

Obedience matters!


Justification is not as complex as sanctification is; we are justified by faith. Justification is a punctiliar event, sanctification is an on going process with punctiliar events of progress within that process.




I wouldn't say repent, per se, but rather we must submit to the Lordship of Christ everyday, picking up our cross daily and following him in obedience. If we have sinned, yes, repentance is needed. But we are called to "not sin", but if we do, which is expected to become an increasing rarity, we have an advocate with the Father.

I too agree that sanctification is a free gift granted by faith.


Doug

Amen

 

[Ladodgers6]

I was only saying that we are justified by faith, not by works. I wasn't making any statement about whether obedience is necessary for heaven.

Sorry for the delay, pretty busy week, had doctor & PT appointments. Once again, thanks for sharing. And also, thanks for having a civil, respectable discussion with me.

In God's court we will be judged on our obedience (merits or works). Whether it's our own, or by the imputed Righteousness of Christ. Justification or to be justified in God's court is a legal verdict; a status of guilty or declared righteous by the judge. Therefore, perfect obedience (Flawless Righteousness), one must possess and is necessary to enter heaven. Without it no one will enter heaven, period, Jesus makes this point very clear. So, are we promoting a license to sin? Are we making excuses to continue to sin? I find it ironic that here in the Doctrine of Justification that you guys omit obedience being necessary. The only way we can be declared righteous is if possess righteousness, that can stand the Judge's judgement. Then and only then can we be declared righteous and enter heaven.​

But yes, obedience is necessary to enter heaven. At first, our obedience is only to believe in him,

To believe in what? Because Paul makes it clear how God justifies the wicked, by the Righteousness of God that manifested apart from the Law, namely Christ Jesus. To which the Law & Prophets bear witness to it (Romans 3). And this correlates with Jesus in Matt. 5:17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them," "not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Which also correlates with Romans 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Scripture is clear, and as Meredith Kline put it, "It's the Tale of Two Adams". One brought Condemnation & Death, and the Last One brought Justification & Life!

To be justified before God, you must possess perfect Law-Keeping. But since the wicked cannot produce any righteousness of their own. God's Promised Seed, did! And it's by this righteousness imputed to the ungodly and received through faith Alone apart from OUR works through the Law, we are counted Righteous before God!

Romans 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own,

They have zeal, but not according to knowledge (the Proclamation of the Promise announcement fulfilled by His Son to provide everything that God demands), which is the righteousness of God. They were ignorant in unbelief and knowledge and were trying to establish their own. Because they couldn't believe it was true, or submit to God and his promises of providing it for them. It was foolishness to them.

2 Cor. 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn?

Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Romans 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus​

but after regeneration/the indwelling of the Spirit, we have been set free from the law of sin and death,

and are now able to deny the sinful nature to which we have died, both by the imputation of the death of Christ wherein we are said to be crucified with Christ,

Can you clarify what you mean by the imputation of the death of Christ, a little more for me?

and by impartation of a real transformation of who and what we are by being in Christ. This real transformation changes how we think and see the world, and thus changes our behaviors and attitudes.

This is another point we differ on. We believe that the Gospel is where our changes flow from. We teach that our sanctification flow from the source of our Justification; namely Christ Jesus and His finished works! From the living vine, the root not the fruits is what saves. Because of our Union with Christ all of the heavenly blessings are given to us (Eph. 2). We trust and believe what God did in Christ through a Promise, Oath, Word, Covenant. In that God justifies the ungodly, not by anything they have done or will do, but because of Christ did for sinners! This is good news and announcement for the wicked! Am I condoning sin? By no means!

The Law or stipulations & regulations do not bring good news for the wicked. Why? because of our condemned sinful nature, and the Law now only brings knowledge of sin. Though they must be fulfilled, regardless of our impotency to do so. Paul said, "The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me." Are we promoting sin? On the contrary, we highlight this point extensively. That the Law must be fulfilled 100%, not 99.9%. But I feel you guys do not emphasize this point.

This is critical in understanding the curse of the Law, and why Christ had to become a curse for us! Christ accomplishes two requirements by becoming a curse for us: 1) To pay the ransom of the Law's debt for sin, and by fulfilling it legal requirements with Perfect Law-Keeping that merited Him a Kingdom and a People!
​

In short, we are able and expected to be obedient to what Christ has commanded, namely, to love others as he has loved us! As Paul says, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:12-13)

Obedience matters!

Amen! We do not deny this, but we do deny this when it's called the ground or basis of our Justification. Obedience does matter, which is why God will never lower his standard of Holiness to let anyone enter heaven. Christ said you must be perfect as God is perfect! That our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. That it is not the hearers of the Law, but the doers of the Law. Paul is illustrating how high the bar is set, here. In other words, good luck with that.​

Justification is not as complex as sanctification is; we are justified by faith. Justification is a punctiliar event, sanctification is an on going process with punctiliar events of progress within that process.

Marvelous, in your view when does this punctiliar event take place? We hold to a progressive Sanctification, but I believe differ here as well. Because not only is Justification a free gift so is Sanctification of Christ. So, we are perfectly sanctified in Christ, but are being sanctified, we are also being conformed to the image of the Son by the Holy Spirit.​

I wouldn't say repent, per se, but rather we must submit to the Lordship of Christ everyday, picking up our cross daily and following him in obedience. If we have sinned, yes, repentance is needed. But we are called to "not sin", but if we do, which is expected to become an increasing rarity, we have an advocate with the Father.

So, you believe that your good deeds and loving you neighbor as yourself, and God with all your Heart, mind, soul are flawless?​

I too agree that sanctification is a free gift granted by faith.


Doug

Thanks again for sharing, and for the gentlemen's attitude Doug, it's always a pleasure.

 

[fltom]

Marvelous, in your view when does this punctiliar event take place? We hold to a progressive Sanctification, but I believe differ here as well. Because not only is Justification a free gift so is Sanctification of Christ. So, we are perfectly sanctified in Christ, but are being sanctified, we are also being conformed to the image of the Son by the Holy Spirit.​

Cant get diagram to work

 

[guest1]

Sorry for the delay, pretty busy week, had doctor & PT appointments. Once again, thanks for sharing. And also, thanks for having a civil, respectable discussion with me.

In God's court we will be judged on our obedience (merits or works). Whether it's our own, or by the imputed Righteousness of Christ. Justification or to be justified in God's court is a legal verdict; a status of guilty or declared righteous by the judge. Therefore, perfect obedience (Flawless Righteousness), one must possess and is necessary to enter heaven. Without it no one will enter heaven, period, Jesus makes this point very clear. So, are we promoting a license to sin? Are we making excuses to continue to sin? I find it ironic that here in the Doctrine of Justification that you guys omit obedience being necessary. The only way we can be declared righteous is if possess righteousness, that can stand the Judge's judgement. Then and only then can we be declared righteous and enter heaven.

To believe in what? Because Paul makes it clear how God justifies the wicked, by the Righteousness of God that manifested apart from the Law, namely Christ Jesus. To which the Law & Prophets bear witness to it (Romans 3). And this correlates with Jesus in Matt. 5:17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them," "not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Which also correlates with Romans 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Scripture is clear, and as Meredith Kline put it, "It's the Tale of Two Adams". One brought Condemnation & Death, and the Last One brought Justification & Life!

To be justified before God, you must possess perfect Law-Keeping. But since the wicked cannot produce any righteousness of their own. God's Promised Seed, did! And it's by this righteousness imputed to the ungodly and received through faith Alone apart from OUR works through the Law, we are counted Righteous before God!

Romans 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own,

They have zeal, but not according to knowledge (the Proclamation of the Promise announcement fulfilled by His Son to provide everything that God demands), which is the righteousness of God. They were ignorant in unbelief and knowledge and were trying to establish their own. Because they couldn't believe it was true, or submit to God and his promises of providing it for them. It was foolishness to them.

2 Cor. 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn?

Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Romans 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus​

Can you clarify what you mean by the imputation of the death of Christ, a little more for me?

This is another point we differ on. We believe that the Gospel is where our changes flow from. We teach that our sanctification flow from the source of our Justification; namely Christ Jesus and His finished works! From the living vine, the root not the fruits is what saves. Because of our Union with Christ all of the heavenly blessings are given to us (Eph. 2). We trust and believe what God did in Christ through a Promise, Oath, Word, Covenant. In that God justifies the ungodly, not by anything they have done or will do, but because of Christ did for sinners! This is good news and announcement for the wicked! Am I condoning sin? By no means!

The Law or stipulations & regulations do not bring good news for the wicked. Why? because of our condemned sinful nature, and the Law now only brings knowledge of sin. Though they must be fulfilled, regardless of our impotency to do so. Paul said, "The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me." Are we promoting sin? On the contrary, we highlight this point extensively. That the Law must be fulfilled 100%, not 99.9%. But I feel you guys do not emphasize this point.

This is critical in understanding the curse of the Law, and why Christ had to become a curse for us! Christ accomplishes two requirements by becoming a curse for us: 1) To pay the ransom of the Law's debt for sin, and by fulfilling it legal requirements with Perfect Law-Keeping that merited Him a Kingdom and a People!


Amen! We do not deny this, but we do deny this when it's called the ground or basis of our Justification. Obedience does matter, which is why God will never lower his standard of Holiness to let anyone enter heaven. Christ said you must be perfect as God is perfect! That our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. That it is not the hearers of the Law, but the doers of the Law. Paul is illustrating how high the bar is set, here. In other words, good luck with that.

Marvelous, in your view when does this punctiliar event take place? We hold to a progressive Sanctification, but I believe differ here as well. Because not only is Justification a free gift so is Sanctification of Christ. So, we are perfectly sanctified in Christ, but are being sanctified, we are also being conformed to the image of the Son by the Holy Spirit.

So, you believe that your good deeds and loving you neighbor as yourself, and God with all your Heart, mind, soul are flawless?​

Thanks again for sharing, and for the gentlemen's attitude Doug, it's always a pleasure.

no fruit no root its just that simple- faith produces good works as per Ephesians 2:8-10 and John 15

next

 

[ReverendRV]

no fruit no root its just that simple- faith produces good works as per Ephesians 2:8-10 and John 15

next

Shortly after I got Saved and first heard about the controversy between Evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism regarding Saint James' Verses about Justification through Works, it was explained to me that Saint James was teaching Post Salvific Works are meant to Justify you in the sight of the Church. I think this is still a good way to explain the dichotomy of Justification through Faith and Justification through Works. Saint James said 'Show ME your Works'. God can see your Works when no one else can. If the Thief on the Cross was Justified by Post Salvific 'Works he was Created for', only God could see them because the Thief was on his death bed...

I wouldn't say that if the Thief didn't have Fruit, he couldn't have Roots...

 

[guest1]

Shortly after I got Saved and first heard about the controversy between Evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism regarding Saint James' Verses about Justification through Works, it was explained to me that Saint James was teaching that Post Salvific Works are meant to Justify you in the sight of the Church. I think this is still a good way to explain the dichotomy of Justification through Faith and Justification through Works. Saint James said 'Show ME your Works'. God can see your Works when no one else can. If the Thief on the Cross was Justified by 'Works he was Created for', only God could see them because the Thief was on his death bed...

His confession was evidence of his salvation/faith in Christ.

Good works/fruit is the evidence of a living faith, one who is alive in Christ. The roots are real, alive, living, abiding in the Vine and being nourished by the Holy Spirit. Its Christ in you the hope of Glory. Its that New Creation in Christ where all things have become new and the old has passed. Its a miracle of the new birth just like any other miracle in scripture. The blind now see, the deaf now hear, the mute can speak, the dead have been brought back to life, the leper is now cleansed. The same thing happenes with the new birth we have been transformed, going from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Light, transferred from the kingdom of this world, the god of this world to the Living God, from the old man to the new man, from loving sin to hating sin, from practicing sin to practicing righteousness, being sacntified, justified, glorified not condemned, from hating others to loving others, from serving self to denying ones self and so forth there are so many such examples of what takes place in the new birth.

 

[guest1]

We had a discussion that someone brought up last night on how they would love to see miracles.

I mentioned Jesus teaching on a wicked generation seeks signs/miracles and that he said He would give them the sign of Jonah.

But I mentioned what greater miracle is there than the new birth ? Someone that has been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God ? And the gospel which being preached, taught and shared is the power of God unto salvation. So the miracle of the new birth which is eternal far outweighs and temporal miracle we might see here that is gone once we die but the miracle of Eternal Life lasts forever.

I'll take that miracle 24/7 over the miracles, signs and wonders that people seek. And in fact this whole world will be deceived by those signs before the 2nd Coming of the Lord.

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Thessalonians 2
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Revelation 13
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

[TibiasDad]

Sorry for the delay, pretty busy week, had doctor & PT appointments. Once again, thanks for sharing. And also, thanks for having a civil, respectable discussion with me.

In God's court we will be judged on our obedience (merits or works). Whether it's our own, or by the imputed Righteousness of Christ. Justification or to be justified in God's court is a legal verdict; a status of guilty or declared righteous by the judge. Therefore, perfect obedience (Flawless Righteousness), one must possess and is necessary to enter heaven. Without it no one will enter heaven, period, Jesus makes this point very clear. So, are we promoting a license to sin? Are we making excuses to continue to sin? I find it ironic that here in the Doctrine of Justification that you guys omit obedience being necessary. The only way we can be declared righteous is if possess righteousness, that can stand the Judge's judgement. Then and only then can we be declared righteous and enter heaven.

To believe in what? Because Paul makes it clear how God justifies the wicked, by the Righteousness of God that manifested apart from the Law, namely Christ Jesus. To which the Law & Prophets bear witness to it (Romans 3). And this correlates with Jesus in Matt. 5:17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them," "not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Which also correlates with Romans 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Scripture is clear, and as Meredith Kline put it, "It's the Tale of Two Adams". One brought Condemnation & Death, and the Last One brought Justification & Life!

To be justified before God, you must possess perfect Law-Keeping. But since the wicked cannot produce any righteousness of their own. God's Promised Seed, did! And it's by this righteousness imputed to the ungodly and received through faith Alone apart from OUR works through the Law, we are counted Righteous before God!

Romans 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own,

They have zeal, but not according to knowledge (the Proclamation of the Promise announcement fulfilled by His Son to provide everything that God demands), which is the righteousness of God. They were ignorant in unbelief and knowledge and were trying to establish their own. Because they couldn't believe it was true, or submit to God and his promises of providing it for them. It was foolishness to them.

2 Cor. 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn?

Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Romans 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus​

Can you clarify what you mean by the imputation of the death of Christ, a little more for me?

This is another point we differ on. We believe that the Gospel is where our changes flow from. We teach that our sanctification flow from the source of our Justification; namely Christ Jesus and His finished works! From the living vine, the root not the fruits is what saves. Because of our Union with Christ all of the heavenly blessings are given to us (Eph. 2). We trust and believe what God did in Christ through a Promise, Oath, Word, Covenant. In that God justifies the ungodly, not by anything they have done or will do, but because of Christ did for sinners! This is good news and announcement for the wicked! Am I condoning sin? By no means!

The Law or stipulations & regulations do not bring good news for the wicked. Why? because of our condemned sinful nature, and the Law now only brings knowledge of sin. Though they must be fulfilled, regardless of our impotency to do so. Paul said, "The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me." Are we promoting sin? On the contrary, we highlight this point extensively. That the Law must be fulfilled 100%, not 99.9%. But I feel you guys do not emphasize this point.

This is critical in understanding the curse of the Law, and why Christ had to become a curse for us! Christ accomplishes two requirements by becoming a curse for us: 1) To pay the ransom of the Law's debt for sin, and by fulfilling it legal requirements with Perfect Law-Keeping that merited Him a Kingdom and a People!


Amen! We do not deny this, but we do deny this when it's called the ground or basis of our Justification. Obedience does matter, which is why God will never lower his standard of Holiness to let anyone enter heaven. Christ said you must be perfect as God is perfect! That our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. That it is not the hearers of the Law, but the doers of the Law. Paul is illustrating how high the bar is set, here. In other words, good luck with that.

Marvelous, in your view when does this punctiliar event take place? We hold to a progressive Sanctification, but I believe differ here as well. Because not only is Justification a free gift so is Sanctification of Christ. So, we are perfectly sanctified in Christ, but are being sanctified, we are also being conformed to the image of the Son by the Holy Spirit.

So, you believe that your good deeds and loving you neighbor as yourself, and God with all your Heart, mind, soul are flawless?​

Thanks again for sharing, and for the gentlemen's attitude Doug, it's always a pleasure.

LA,

I shall be brief, as I too have had a very long day, having to have an infusion for my MS, then helping move my parents from assisted living into a full nursing facility, and closing the day with a Good Friday service; and yes, I am pretty tired. Therefore, I will only reference one line of your detailed and finely written post (and I mean this in all sincerity.)

You said, "To be justified before God, you must possess perfect Law-Keeping." We are justified by faith alone, and never because of our own works or capacities thereof, and the moment we express our belief in Christ, and repent of our sins, we are fully justified before God, and he sees no sin, no law breaking against us. We are, once again, like unto Jacob and Esau before they were born, as if we hadn't done good or bad; a fresh slate. We aren't perfect because Jesus kept the law perfect, but because we are forgiven the debt we owed. And now, "the old has gone and the new has come" and we a "new creation"! Yes, Jesus kept the law perfectly, but in doing so, he abolished the standard of the first covenant, the Law, and established, on this very day, the New Covenant of his blood, which is not by law, and thus, not by works, but by "faith from first to last"! We must not "possess perfect Law-Keeping", we must possess faith alone, because that is the new standard of the new covenant and it is administered by grace alone.

My fatigue, I fear, is winning the game, just as your Dodgers are winning against my thus far pathetic Reds, so I shall retire and pick this up ant a more lucid time!

Doug

 

[Ladodgers6]

Shortly after I got Saved and first heard about the controversy between Evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism regarding Saint James' Verses about Justification through Works, it was explained to me that Saint James was teaching Post Salvific Works are meant to Justify you in the sight of the Church. I think this is still a good way to explain the dichotomy of Justification through Faith and Justification through Works. Saint James said 'Show ME your Works'. God can see your Works when no one else can. If the Thief on the Cross was Justified by Post Salvific 'Works he was Created for', only God could see them because the Thief was on his death bed...

I wouldn't say that if the Thief didn't have Fruit, he couldn't have Roots...

They are looking within for assurance, instead of that the person, and his finished works. No novelty here, it's Rome all over again; Legalism is their basis or ground of their justification before a Holy God.

In by Grace, BUT stay in by your obedience (works-righteousness) which will merit the final justification before God.​