Internalization and the dualism of this world - a thought experiment

e v e

Super Member
Metaphysics means, ‘behind physics’ and that means, what is underlying physics. Plato’s texts are about the places of the gods, not about this earth's realm, that is, his texts are about a physics underlying this realm, as in the world-tree, picture will be provided. Augustine continues what Plato does, blurring the realms, that is, often in Augustine's texts, not just Plato's, it is not clear that any realm can exist outside this bulky material one. The other world becomes ‘psychology’ and myth after Plato, and goes subconscious, existing but as archetypes. And even Augustine, though he talks about the two realms in City of God, begins to speak about those things, hypothetically, having lost touch with the ancients and being blocked from the olden view. In City of God, he openly speculates, changes his mind on the same point but now, reality is 'all in the mind'. That is what is meant by 'internalization.'

Plato does not know that we fell, out of Eden, or that after the fall - Genesis - every ‘reality’ was transferred, taken up into the very consciousness he philosophizes in... the consciousness of this world, this solar system ‘reality’ [the tree of good and evil.] And Augustine, while he does seem to know, at times in City of God, at other times seems to forget. And the further we go into his books, such as de Trinitate or Of Free Choice of the Will.... the further he gets from those glimpses we did see, in City of God.

So how could this massive alteration happen ?

a) there is a difference between the 'soul' and 'a deity' -
Each of us has a core being, that what we really are inside, when all the make-up is removed; and generally , all of us have deep down a core which desires to be loved, to be appreciated, to feel safe, etc.

In scripture this core is termed 'soul', nephesh ; and also hieroglyphs know this concept [compare the -S glyph]. Scripture knows that the soul herself is not a very 'capable' being - in fact , she is rather helpless; but because she was created that way. And there is nothing wrong with that -- what does it matter [that the soul is rather helpless] when a powerful being loves her, wanting to serve every desire of that soul..?
- the problem starts when the relation like this, is being disturbed. Which we find in Genesis.


Genesis narrates this as "having lost the covering", and that, the soul got somehow Blocked from interacting with her own deity; yet that soul is still the same helpless as before!, causing the need of the soul for "another protector" , but now, this time, instead of a loving Deity, the protector is in the form of 'the Self'. That Self is a kind of caretaker and executer for the soul; if the soul feels lonely for example, the Self searches some music; when the soul is hungry, the Self chooses chocolate or candy to eat [compare emotional eating], etc. The comparison is not always valid - because the Self is a most unreliable master, and can take-over as well.
Many people today reject the concept of 'a deity' , and neither know anymore that they have [=are] a soul, but confuse their own core being (their soul) with what they call "me" or "I" , factually meaning 'their Self' - and many but discover that something went wrong , when they, for example, finally had a burn-out; the burn-out is nothing else as the slave-master Self overrunning the needs and desires of the soul -
until the soul finally says "i am too tired - i cannot do it anymore".

b) because the soul but lives a rather short timespan

It seems a rather obvious point - every new-born soul is the same 'helpless', because of the same situation. A new generations cannot go 'inherit' all which the previous generations learned and knew, simply because every new soul being born will need to learn and see everything for herself again. And though some aspects may remain the same (like character through DNA, teachings, etc.) , the soul is but living a rather short moment in Time - and often needing a large part of that time , to learn [or re-learn] for her own again the [perhaps most obvious] truths.

Meanwhile the metaphysical world behind that soul has its own laws and reasons for what is happening in the world , using much larger time cycles than a soul's short timespan.

c) metaphysics
Many cultures that previously existed, waxed to greatness : then fell and disappeared. And those cycles always follow the same curve - a nation starts to conquer it's neighbors , gains impossible wealth and power, but then starts to go corrupt from inside (because of laziness, infight, etc.) and the empire crumbles; whether the Roman or Akkadian empire, all rose and went down the same way.

But any soul living within those cycles , cannot see the cycles themselves, because those timespans are too large for the soul; often that is called 'someone being a child of her or his time', cherishing the general ideas and customs which were accepted in that timeframe that they could observe.

But seeing this from a deity point of view, being in charge of those cycles, slowly you could 'get to the ultimate goal you wanted', by using those cycles.
At the start of the one empire, you could give some willing souls a few "ideas": those people we call inventors , or geniuses - you show them , for example , how to build roads and bridges , so that their army can quickly move throughout the land ; or you introduce 'the war chariot’, or iron lances instead of wooden ones, etc. [compare how that fits the line in Henoch 'and the watchers taught the children of men all types of warfare, cosmetics, etc'; and you'll be amazed how many 'inventors' got their ideas by dreams, visions, etc.; descartes got his scientific method in three dreams, and compare IBM] ; At some point in time, your empire will fall (because deep down its based on egoism and greed , and you know that already) , so you start your next empire , say at their neighbors.

But since now also they have roads and chariots , you show a few 'inventors' of your new empire how to make gunpowder , and how to shoot big iron balls (from a device called canon) to destroy the roads of the enemies , and their horse-chariots. And so by each new empire , like a continuous ‘progress’. And after ten empires , your soldiers would sit in a cozy room , playing on devices to have a flying bomb kill other soldiers 10,000 miles away - as a device called 'drone'.

d) the realms behind metaphysics : world history
the previous point however is not enough to show the complexity ; because why would a deity "go and play with peoples , just as a 4 y old would in his sandbox with his toys"?

Yet this is what the pre-Plato Greeks believed - their own pantheon was full of illogical actions of their own deities ; who were jealous , childish, fond of intrigue, unpredictable and often plain merciless. And since the 'modern West' has its origins in Greek thinking, it is not strange that most people today think that "religion is nonsense", since they will tell you that "I m not believing in some prehistoric unpredictable, egoistic god".

You see where that thoughtline comes from ..? And it is not a new thoughtline? And how that thoughtline could be the exact the type thinking, that this certain being wanted to reach , to teach to man, after 10 empires? Worse - deliberately steering to that point? Yet many people who will tell you "I do not believe in some prehistoric, egoistic god", are the same ones 'playing god' themselves every day:

in the thousands are videogames where empires need to be built, aliens need to be destroyed and hostile nations need to be torpedoed!
You see how very deep this archetype is seated ? They will say "oh well but that's not the same". But it is. Because the soul does not see the difference: but her protector should. But then, who is her protector? That Self?

- because though their Self watches the game and is playing it, their soul is still part of the metaphysical realm; and the soul's longings and desires are directly linked to that realm - either in bad or in good. It is simply not possible that a soul who is murdering aliens in his video game daily, 'is a good soul' the rest of the day. Or that a soul who has the role of 'sorcerer' in the World of Witchcraft games 'is a good soul, in daily life' - even metaphorically that sentence is invalid. A soul gets Affected with what he is told to be occupied with - because it is the intention of the soul which matters [and every soul will be judged for his or her intentions, at the end].

We'll return to this important theme ; for now just to show the strange Split in thinking, as Dualism-in-extremis, which is happening these days.

So now in the next post will begin the thought experiment.
 

e v e

Super Member
.Anyone who wants to do the experiment...
please write down when the experiment ends, your responses for each step of the experiment...
what you saw, etc. We are counting down from 10. The experiment has 10 steps.

Please Do the experiment... not just gloss it in 5 seconds... please.
Each step may take a few minutes... and write down your responses to paste here later.

...we are going on a trip , today.
...try to imagine - the best you can - you are in a strange land.

...it is a day in Autumn ; and almost evening, the last rays of the sun sink away;
you stand at the edge of a forest, you just passed through,
having arrived at the real place, which i am now going to describe to you,

There are others there, who you know, also ; but somehow you are not too aware of them:
this is about you, and what you will see in front of you.

10]

....so you start walking.
...ahead of you, in the distance, you see the outlines of a building, which appears as some Greek temple....
A sultry-sweet scent of ripe fruit is over the field.... Somewhere, you hear little children laughing, but it sounds far away, and a bit unreal...
----- you enter the temple... and see a male standing at its center... his posture seems higher then ordinary men... - he has a very determined look at his face... he must be some Greek god, because his flesh is like fiery bronze... you look to the direction he looks... and see the name "son of......" , but the word you cannot decipher.
 

e v e

Super Member
You leave the temple,

9] ------ and from where you are you can see the houses, built just below the temple, and then you enter the small streets.... the houses are small, packed next to each other..... while you walk over the cobblestone-road, you see how many have lit their street-candle already, suspended in old-looking black iron holders, just next to the front door....

You hear the name of this area... it sounds Egyptian.... - but where are all the people? why is no one outside anymore, at this early hour...?
 

e v e

Super Member
very, very strange....

8] At the end of a larger square,
you see a larger building , and the front door is still open - perhaps there are some people inside..?
------ when entering the building, you hear Whispering..... a handful of scribes are sitting at tables.... or standing next to shelves with many, many documents are in rows...... - you see it in front of you ? - ..... on the walls and ceiling are strange paintings....geometric figures, which you cannot place.... triangles, and weird suns....
None of the men even look at you....and you feel almost ashamed to go disturb the silence.... so you walk out again...
 

e v e

Super Member
7] the twilight has become more dark now...
at the opposite part of the square is another building.... you slowly walk towards it... - as you peek through one of its windows.... you see the king himself upon his throne... - a bit afraid that he would spot you staring, you continue to walk through these strange streets...
 

e v e

Super Member
6] ----- you pass the Military, surely.... large men, with very muscular bodies .... they have their iron helmets on, while holding large swords ..... - you feel nervous....and just want to find a safe place.... one you recognize.....
 

e v e

Super Member
At the next corner , behind the military, you have a surprise :

5] ----- a lovely , lovely garden !
... now you know where that scent originated from..... - but this is ten times more strong.... - beautiful , almost magical trees.... exhuming an intoxicating sweet scent.... - you remember a phrase from somewhere, "the place of Youth".. trees and flowers are the same gorgeous... soft pinkish petals, almost like alive....
- can you see it in front of you...? -
but after crossing this garden, you see it's antipode :

4] ------ in the back is the Building of Death....- its outside looks sharp, edgy....pointed corners, like knives pointing to the sky... Could it be, that those, who refuse the scent of the garden, are Punished here... ?
 

e v e

Super Member
And those windows -- is the changing of the sunlight, torturing the poor prisoners inside...?
...what strange place is this...? ... good and evil so next to each other...?

you feel a bit creeped out... and walk on...
3] ------- not far away is a kind of astronomical observatory... at least , that's what you can make of it... cause the bit rounded dome, like a cap, and that device on top, reminds you of one.... - you walk inside... - and to your amazement.... you see that in the top of that dome, there is a window, where you can see another universe !
...amazing....

at the other end of the observatory...
2] ------- is the device, surely belonging to that Building of Death ...... - it is a giant stake of Torture... you remember the pictures you saw years ago about the real Count Dracula -- Vlad the Impaler....and you shiver....
 

e v e

Super Member
Positioned around the stake.... are other poles, with banners waving in the breeze.... the banners have strange signs on them... do they show the number of people murdered here....?
you start to feel restless... such a strange place....
...you decide you better leave from here... and you try find the way back....
but... though you are sure you walked in northern direction again... you pass another place, to the left...

1] -------- another strange place..... - there's a sign , but you can only with difficulty read it... - it seems to write "Place Of Lies"..... in the garden, water is streaming in front of the building....- it looks, as if the building is surrounded by eyes...... and weird shadows seem to chase each other on its outer walls......


Please when you imagine each step, write it down what you saw.

There is more to this, but only after any responses and then I will post it.
that is all for me to post; now it is about You.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
before the next part, open your eyes again.

what do you think this place is ?

Hell.

I don’t know. I’m not much of a philosopher, but I thought your experiment sounded intriguing, so I followed it. It kind of reminded me of part of a dream I had when I was about 16.

I’ll be interested in seeing the next part.
 

e v e

Super Member
Consider that when you were imagining,
all of what you saw happened inside of you, in the soul ;
the soul is like that, an inside, an inward spiritual man (2 Cor. 4:16)
made in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27).
Paul says that a soul can know and see things (1 Cor. 2:11).
And, Daniel affirms: his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15).
Scripture says a soul has spiritual eyes, and can see and feel.

But, the soul and mind (the 'Self', the "I" or me) are not the same.

A soul can understand His things,
and can grieve. But the self functions purely by 'information'

When you see the video, next, remember that it is not coming from in your soul...
but is coming from somewhere else....
and then compare how different receiving 'information' is
than seeing something yourself, from inside.
 

e v e

Super Member
we are so used to in this world,
being bombarded, constantly filled with information.

but a question:
would it be possible to be taking in that video, or a lot of bombarding information
At The Same Time
while you were imagining in your soul those 10 steps posted before the video?

Or, would the fed information/version of events overpower?

can you be listening in your soul and imagining...
at the same time while the video plays its headlines

Would not then the version pushing and asserting itself be the video?
and the video + the body's 5 senses block the soul?
 

e v e

Super Member
the soul is not a 'genius' intellectual...

rather, He wants the soul to listen to Him.

I have other parts of the experiment..but first I need to wait
in case anyone comments so far.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Consider that when you were imagining,

Why do we have to imagine anything when we can know and experience the truth and reality by just believing it?

all of what you saw happened inside of you, in the soul ;
the soul is like that, an inside, an inward spiritual man (2 Cor. 4:16)

The soul is us, but the spirit is what gives us (the soul) life. And it is only a believing mind that can host the Holy Spirit.

made in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27).
Paul says that a soul can know and see things (1 Cor. 2:11).
And, Daniel affirms: his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15).
Yes we are told to believe so we too can know and experience God Himself; His truth and reality.

but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him --' but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God, for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:8-12)

Scripture says a soul has spiritual eyes, and can see and feel.

But, the soul and mind (the 'Self', the "I" or me) are not the same.

I disagree here. I would say that minds and brains aren't the same, as brains are no more than rocks without a believing mind. It is the believing mind that knows and experiences the spirit realm.

A soul can understand His things, and can grieve.

It is ONLY the Spirit that can understands His things; "for God is Spirit".

God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.' (John 4:25)

But the self functions purely by 'information'

When you see the video, next, remember that it is not coming from in your soul...
but is coming from somewhere else....
and then compare how different receiving 'information' is
than seeing something yourself, from inside.

That's the difference between "information" and what we believe for ourselves, because the truth we believe ourselves is a part of us, we use it in our reasoning and justification of other things we come to believe. It is how we move from truth to more truth or "from glory to glory".

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty; and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:17-18)
 
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