Interpret John 1:1 by John 1:1.

OldShepherd

Well-known member
You keep talking about creation which happened in the beginning. I am waiting for evidence that Jesus existed before the beginning, or as long as the Father existed because it says he is without beginning or end.
It would be most helpful if you would actually read my post before responding.
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Note Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was.
Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
When did the world come into being? "In the beginning!" Before the beginning, see Jn 17:5,
Jesus already existed.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
I am waiting for evidence that Jesus existed before the beginning, or as long as the Father existed because it says he is without beginning or end.
Nothing good can come if the will is wrong, and to give evidence to him who loves not the truth is to give plentiful information for misinterpretation.
 

Nathan P

Member
It would be most helpful if you would actually read my post before responding.
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Note Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was.
Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
When did the world come into being? "In the beginning!" Before the beginning, see Jn 17:5,
Jesus already existed.
 

Nathan P

Member
It would be most helpful if you would actually read my post before responding.
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Note Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was.
Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
When did the world come into being? "In the beginning!" Before the beginning, see Jn 17:5,
Jesus already existed.
No Jesus did not exist before the beginning. He only existed from about 2,000 years ago that it is documented. And John 17:5 has to do with creation which happened in the beginning. I read your post but you all know there is nothing concrete for you to provide to back your assertions up and instead you have to repeat scriptures that have nothing to do with before the beginning. Clearly show me where Jesus existed further back than around 2,000 years ago. Is that all you got is to repeat John 17:5 that only has to do with in the beginning?
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
No Jesus did not exist before the beginning. He only existed from about 2,000 years ago that it is documented. And John 17:5 has to do with creation which happened in the beginning. I read your post but you all know there is nothing concrete for you to provide to back your assertions up and instead you have to repeat scriptures that have nothing to do with before the beginning. Clearly show me where Jesus existed further back than around 2,000 years ago. Is that all you got is to repeat John 17:5 that only has to do with in the beginning?
Are you referring to Jesus The MAN, or Jesus The Son of God????
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
No Jesus did not exist before the beginning. He only existed from about 2,000 years ago that it is documented. And John 17:5 has to do with creation which happened in the beginning. I read your post but you all know there is nothing concrete for you to provide to back your assertions up and instead you have to repeat scriptures that have nothing to do with before the beginning. Clearly show me where Jesus existed further back than around 2,000 years ago. Is that all you got is to repeat John 17:5 that only has to do with in the beginning?
Read John 17:5 until you understand the difference between "in the beginning and "before the beginning." So far your responses are "You're wrong and I'm right. Am too. Nuh uh!"
Unless Jesus existed before creation He would not have any memory of "before the world was" which is equivalent to "before the beginning."
 

Nathan P

Member
Are you referring to Jesus The MAN, or Jesus The Son of God????
There is only one Jesus and I am referring to Jesus whether one considers him as a man or the Son of God. The only clear documentation of there being one named Jesus who was the Son of God goes back around 2,000 years ago. He was the Son of God as a man on earth correct? Before that Jesus did not exist as a man or the Son of God.
 

Nathan P

Member
Read John 17:5 until you understand the difference between "in the beginning and "before the beginning." So far your responses are "You're wrong and I'm right. Am too. Nuh uh!"
Unless Jesus existed before creation He would not have any memory of "before the world was" which is equivalent to "before the beginning."
No before the world was is not equivalent to before the beginning because the world was made in the beginning. Again all you can do is make scriptures say what you want them to say and you can not provide no clear evidence that Jesus existed before around 2,000 years ago.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
There is only one Jesus and I am referring to Jesus whether one considers him as a man or the Son of God. The only clear documentation of there being one named Jesus who was the Son of God goes back around 2,000 years ago. He was the Son of God as a man on earth correct? Before that Jesus did not exist as a man or the Son of God.
Jesus The MAN dates from 4 b. c.
Jesus The Son of God dates from ETERNITY.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
No before the world was is not equivalent to before the beginning because the world was made in the beginning. Again all you can do is make scriptures say what you want them to say and you can not provide no clear evidence that Jesus existed before around 2,000 years ago.
Wrong! Read Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created...the earth." The creation of the earth coincides with "the beginning." Jesus had glory with God before the beginning.
 

Nathan P

Member
Wrong! Read Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created...the earth." The creation of the earth coincides with "the beginning." Jesus had glory with God before the beginning.
No he did not. The creation of the earth coincides with in the beginning and not the beginning.
 

Nathan P

Member
Read John 17:5 until you understand the difference between "in the beginning and "before the beginning." So far your responses are "You're wrong and I'm right. Am too. Nuh uh!"
Unless Jesus existed before creation He would not have any memory of "before the world was" which is equivalent to "before the beginning."
Just you saying before the world was is equivalent to before the beginning does not cut it. In the beginning the world was created and it is stated clearly like that in the bible.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Then you have to document that he existed before the Word became flesh as well as I can document that he only became the Son after the Word became flesh?
You CANNOT document The Word becoming The Son of God since there is NO passage which says so.
The Word became a MAN; He did NOT become The Son of God.
 

Nathan P

Member
You CANNOT document The Word becoming The Son of God since there is NO passage which says so.
The Word became a MAN; He did NOT become The Son of God.
It is only documented that there was a Son of God after the Word became flesh. I did not say the Word became the Son of God and instead I said the Word became flesh and only then is there a documented Son of God. Slow down and read what I type.
 

Nathan P

Member
Wrong! Read Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created...the earth." The creation of the earth coincides with "the beginning." Jesus had glory with God before the beginning.
If that is the case according to you that that the creation of the earth coincides with the beginning and that means according to you that means Jesus had glory with God before the beginning. Meaning according to you the creation of the earth which happened in the beginning, like the Word was in the beginning has to coincide with the beginning too and thus you are saying the earth was created before the beginning.
 

Nathan P

Member
You CANNOT document The Word becoming The Son of God since there is NO passage which says so.
The Word became a MAN; He did NOT become The Son of God.
How many times do I have to tell you I never said the Word became the Son of God? Listen closely I said the Word became flesh and only then is there a documented Son of God who was Jesus after the Word became flesh.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
It is only documented that there was a Son of God after the Word became flesh. I did not say the Word became the Son of God and instead I said the Word became flesh and only then is there a documented Son of God. Slow down and read what I type.
IOW only then was The Son of God REVEALED to the world AS a MAN.
And you DID say He became The Son AFTER the Word became flesh.
 

Nathan P

Member
Interpret John 1:1 by John 1:1.

The Greek language has the definite article which has approximately thirty variations, is translated into English as “the”, and points to an identifiable personality, someone we have prior knowledge of. But the Greek language has no indefinite article corresponding to the English “a”, or “an”. Often the Grammarians add the English indefinite articles “a” or “an” to give the proper sense of the passage, therefore pointing to an unidentifiable person, someone we do not have prior knowledge of. But this does not mean that every time a noun lacking the definite article occurs in the Greek text it should have an indefinite article in the translation. Depending on the context of the verse, chapter, book, and the main idea that the writer, translators render nouns lacking the definite article, either indefinite, definite, or none.

The gospel of John is intended to be read based on the thesis which is the first 18 verses, which is anchored on the first verse. If one believes that in the first verse, Jesus is God, then one reads the gospel from that point of view, but if one believes Jesus is a created being based on the first verse, then one will read the rest of the gospel based on that point of view. Therefore the deity of Jesus in John 1:1 should be determined by John 1:1

Dissect vs 1 into a logical argument
[premise 1] In the beginning was the Word,
[premise 2] and the Word was with God,
[conclusion] and the Word was God [or a god.]
Therefore premise 1and or 2 should support either “God” or “a god”.


In the beginning, was (ἐν ἀρχ͂ῃ ἦν)[en- ar•khay eimi].

If we are able to draw an imaginary line, on a razor's edge, where on one side there exists only God and the eternal, and the other exists the created and the temporal, this razor's edge is what John is opening to. John does not open referring to the beginning of Genesis but prior to it, in fact prior to time itself. Note this imaginary line relates to the eternal and the temporal, and not to the Genesis account of creation because creation is not mentioned until vs. 3. Notice where John places the Logos in reference to the beginning; if the Logos is a created being then the Logos would be included in the ‘beginning’ or after. Using [ἦν eimi] “was”, which denotes absolute existence instead of [ἐγένετο, egeneto] “came into being”, or “began to be”, which is used in vs. 3, John is placing the Logos prior to the beginning. John is saying that the Logos absolutely existed prior to the beginning, and the only One who existed prior to the beginning is God in the eternal. Therefore the only logical conclusion for John 1:1 is “the Word was God” not “was a god”.

Any rebuttal should be able to support its position by using John 1:1 only.
Are you saying John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 mean thing. And it seems to be your opinion the Logos existed prior to the beginning? Or you can not get documentation from anywhere that agrees with your point of view?
 
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