Irreconcilable Differences

RCM

Member
LDS contend their faith has truth, and they appeal that there should be more acceptance of what they believe from Christians. As Mormonism continues to evolve, the LDS argue that we both worship and believe in the same Biblical God.

Though there are many disagreements in beliefs, what do you think is the greatest difference between the LDS faith and Biblical Christianity?

The greatest difference in beliefs is the doctrine concerning the person and nature of God!

The LDS doctrine of God is clearly presented in the teachings of Joseph Smith, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so, for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see.

Here, then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one.” (Joseph Smith, April 6-7, 1844, General Conference with 20,000 people in attendance. Journal of Discourse, Vol. 6. Also known as the King Follett Discourse).

Brigham Young taught the same doctrine of God on multiple occasions as documented in an August 8, 1852 address in Journal of Discourses Volume 3, and an October 8, 1859 address in Journal of Discourses Volume 7.

Lorenzo Snow, the 5th LDS President declared, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.

In the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony, the speaking part of Lucifer clearly states that Father God gained his knowledge by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree in the garden when he was a man. (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 40 refute this LDS doctrine).

LDS doctrine clearly teaches two points of theology; (1) Father God is a created being, glorified humanity, and a created god. (2) Father God was once a fallen sinful disobedient man.

What Does The Bible Teach?

In Exodus 3:14, God declares to Moses that He is, “I Am.” The Hebrew is in the imperfect tense clearly emphasizing a linear continuous ongoing nature without a beginning and without an end! Therefore, God is true divinity from all eternity, and Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 40; Malachi 3:6; 1 John 1:5 are supporting scripture.

Joseph Smith taught contrary to Biblical Truth on the person and nature of God! LDS doctrine on Jesus is also in error, satan is not a brother of the Biblical Jesus, (John 1:1-5).

LDS doctrine and the Biblical Truth about God and Jesus are irreconcilable!


Romans 1

RCM
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
LDS contend their faith has truth, and they appeal that there should be more acceptance of what they believe from Christians. As Mormonism continues to evolve, the LDS argue that we both worship and believe in the same Biblical God.

Though there are many disagreements in beliefs, what do you think is the greatest difference between the LDS faith and Biblical Christianity?

The greatest difference in beliefs is the doctrine concerning the person and nature of God!

The LDS doctrine of God is clearly presented in the teachings of Joseph Smith, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so, for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see.

Here, then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one.” (Joseph Smith, April 6-7, 1844, General Conference with 20,000 people in attendance. Journal of Discourse, Vol. 6. Also known as the King Follett Discourse).

Brigham Young taught the same doctrine of God on multiple occasions as documented in an August 8, 1852 address in Journal of Discourses Volume 3, and an October 8, 1859 address in Journal of Discourses Volume 7.

Lorenzo Snow, the 5th LDS President declared, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.

In the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony, the speaking part of Lucifer clearly states that Father God gained his knowledge by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree in the garden when he was a man. (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 40 refute this LDS doctrine).

LDS doctrine clearly teaches two points of theology; (1) Father God is a created being, glorified humanity, and a created god. (2) Father God was once a fallen sinful disobedient man.

What Does The Bible Teach?

In Exodus 3:14, God declares to Moses that He is, “I Am.” The Hebrew is in the imperfect tense clearly emphasizing a linear continuous ongoing nature without a beginning and without an end! Therefore, God is true divinity from all eternity, and Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 40; Malachi 3:6; 1 John 1:5 are supporting scripture.

Joseph Smith taught contrary to Biblical Truth on the person and nature of God! LDS doctrine on Jesus is also in error, satan is not a brother of the Biblical Jesus, (John 1:1-5).

LDS doctrine and the Biblical Truth about God and Jesus are irreconcilable!


Romans 1

RCM


But wouldn't you claim the same thing about Biblical NT testimony--which separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and has the God of the OT testifying He has a God and Father also?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
But wouldn't you claim the same thing about Biblical NT testimony--which separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and has the God of the OT testifying He has a God and Father also?

Sadly, you're not here for discussion, you're only here to sabotage discussion. You post your "verses", which we've already addressed many times, and we post our verses, which you keep RUNNING AWAY from.

Deut. 4:35 ... the Lord is God; there is no other besides him
Deut. 4:39 ... the Lord is God... there is no other.
Deut. 32:39 ... and there is no god besides me;
2 Sam. 7:22 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
2 Sam. 22:32  For who is God, save the LORD?
1 Kings 8:60 ... the Lord is God; there is no other.
1 Chr. 17:20 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
Isa. 44:6 ... I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.
Isa. 44:8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.
Isa. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:
Is. 45:21 ... there is no God else beside me;
Isa 45:22 ... for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa. 46:9 ... for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Cor. 8:4 … and that there is none other God but one.


As for your passages, they are all consistent with the Biblical truth that ONLY one god exists, but the Father and the Son are distinct from one another as that one God.

NONE of them speak of multiple "gods" (which you ASSUME):

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
But wouldn't you claim the same thing about Biblical NT testimony--which separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and has the God of the OT testifying He has a God and Father also?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
No, the Bible separates the PERSONS in the Godhead--and declares that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God. And repeatedly says that there is ONLY One God, and that God is One. NOT three...even your very own BoM says that Father, Son, and HG are "one God"--doesn't it, dberrie?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
But wouldn't you claim the same thing about Biblical NT testimony

Before the revelation of Jesus Christ, the Jews were given the truth that ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS. That is the FOUNDATION of Biblical Christianity, which is what Mormons IGNORE:

Deut. 4:35 ... the Lord is God; there is no other besides him
Deut. 4:39 ... the Lord is God... there is no other.
Deut. 32:39 ... and there is no god besides me;
2 Sam. 7:22 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
2 Sam. 22:32  For who is God, save the LORD?
1 Kings 8:60 ... the Lord is God; there is no other.
1 Chr. 17:20 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
Isa. 44:6 ... I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.
Isa. 44:8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.
Isa. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:
Is. 45:21 ... there is no God else beside me;
Isa 45:22 ... for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa. 46:9 ... for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Cor. 8:4 … and that there is none other God but one.


Now, no matter what we read in the NT, it cannot contradict this fundamental truth that ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS. And we have to interpret anything and everything in the NT to be consistent with this truth that ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS, which Mormons are unwilling to do.

Now, none of the passages dberrie posts speak of multiple "gods", and so we cannot make that assumption, based on the above texts.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Bible teaches that only one god exists. And in fact, the above passage is an expansion of the Sh'ma, Deut. 6:4-5, which Jews pray every day:

Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Yahweh is both "God" and "LORD" (the term "Lord" comes from the Hebrew, "Adonai", and is used in Scripture to replace the name of God, a convention the Jews came up with to avoid taking the Lord's name in vain (simply don't say it, ever!).

Since both the Father and Jesus are God (the one true God of Israel), there is still a distinction between the two, and Paul's convention is to refer to the Father as "God" (without denying His Lordship), and calling Jesus "Lord" (without denying His deity).

Now the sad thing about quoting this "proof-text" is that dberrie IGNORES the previous verse:

1Cor. 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Everything in this verse is true:
1) only one God exists (which Mormons reject);
2) Jesus took on a body of flesh, and became "man";
3) Jesus is the mediator between the Father (God) and sinners.

dberrie seems to be trying to deny that Jesus is God, but this simply demonstrates that he's trolling, since Mormonism teaches the deity of Christ.

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Again, everything in this verse is certainly true, and consistent with evangelical Christianity.
However, dberrie seems to want to deny that God is the Lord.
And he also seems to want to deny that Jesus is deity.

One reason he's confused is because the term, "Father" doesn't always mean "biological daddy". It sometime means "creator", as in George Washington being "the Father" of our country.

Biblical examples include:

Is. 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.

Mal. 2:10 Have we not all one Father?
Has not one God created us?


John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Again, is dberrie trying to deny the deity of Christ?
The interesting thing here is that the Greek word, "kai" (rendered as "and", here) can also mean "same", or "even". Greek scholar A.T. Robertson translates the verse as:

"... the only true God, even Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Yes?
And?
This is referring to the Father and to the Son.
The Father isn't the Son, even in Mormonism.

This is why the poster needs to actually EXEGETE his proof-texts, because otherwise we're simply shaking our heads wondering why he's quoting random verses for no reason...

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Yes, and....?
Again, is dberrie contradicting Mormonism by trying to deny the deity of Christ?
He seems to be simply trolling.

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Yes, and.... ?
Are you denying that the Father is the Father?
Are you denying that God is God?
Did you expect Jesus to be an atheist?
What exactly is your point?

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Yes, and ...?
Again, did you expect Jesus to be an atheist?

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yes, and ...?
Again, did you expect Jesus to be an atheist?
 

The Prophet

Active member
But wouldn't you claim the same thing about Biblical NT testimony--which separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and has the God of the OT testifying He has a God and Father also?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
As for your passages, they are all consistent with the Biblical truth that ONLY one god exists, but the Father and the Son are distinct from one another as that one God.

NONE of them speak of multiple "gods" (which you ASSUME):

Not only does the NT witness separate them as God the Father and God the Son--but as the "one God"(God the Father) and the "one Lord":(God the Son)

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
LDS contend their faith has truth, and they appeal that there should be more acceptance of what they believe from Christians. As Mormonism continues to evolve, the LDS argue that we both worship and believe in the same Biblical God.

Though there are many disagreements in beliefs, what do you think is the greatest difference between the LDS faith and Biblical Christianity?

The greatest difference in beliefs is the doctrine concerning the person and nature of God!

The LDS doctrine of God is clearly presented in the teachings of Joseph Smith, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so, for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see.

Here, then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one.” (Joseph Smith, April 6-7, 1844, General Conference with 20,000 people in attendance. Journal of Discourse, Vol. 6. Also known as the King Follett Discourse).

Brigham Young taught the same doctrine of God on multiple occasions as documented in an August 8, 1852 address in Journal of Discourses Volume 3, and an October 8, 1859 address in Journal of Discourses Volume 7.

Lorenzo Snow, the 5th LDS President declared, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.

In the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony, the speaking part of Lucifer clearly states that Father God gained his knowledge by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree in the garden when he was a man. (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 40 refute this LDS doctrine).

LDS doctrine clearly teaches two points of theology; (1) Father God is a created being, glorified humanity, and a created god. (2) Father God was once a fallen sinful disobedient man.

What Does The Bible Teach?

In Exodus 3:14, God declares to Moses that He is, “I Am.” The Hebrew is in the imperfect tense clearly emphasizing a linear continuous ongoing nature without a beginning and without an end! Therefore, God is true divinity from all eternity, and Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 40; Malachi 3:6; 1 John 1:5 are supporting scripture.

Joseph Smith taught contrary to Biblical Truth on the person and nature of God! LDS doctrine on Jesus is also in error, satan is not a brother of the Biblical Jesus, (John 1:1-5).

LDS doctrine and the Biblical Truth about God and Jesus are irreconcilable!


Romans 1

RCM
Irreconcilable Without a doubt!

Biblical Teaching: There Is Only One God and Jesus Christ Is the Second Person of the Trinity

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is eternal God, the second Person of the Trinity, and as such He neither could be created by another God, nor be one of God’s created spirit children.

According to the Bible, there is only one God, not endless numbers of them:

Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. (Deut. 4:39)

... there is only one God. (1 Cor. 8:4)

There is no god besides me. (Deut. 32:29)

Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. (Isa. 43:10)

This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6)

Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one. (Isa. 44:8)

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. (Isa. 45:5)

For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God. (Psa. 86:10)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,... (1 Tim. 2:5)

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,... (Col. 2:9)

Mormonism teaches that the Jesus of the New Testament is also the Jehovah of the Old Testament, illustrating Mormon confusion relative to the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. It raises the question of how the first Person of the Trinity could be both the Father and the Son—i.e., how could Elohim be the Father and Jehovah be the Son when biblically, the terms “Elohim” and “Jehovah” referred to the same divine Person?

Mormonism thus fails to properly differentiate the first and second Persons of the Trinity, the Person of the Father and the Person of the Son. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches there are three distinct persons or centers of consciousness within one divine essence; a mystery, but no one should expect to understand an infinite God. That is how He has revealed Himself.

Mormons believe that the term “Jehovah” as used in the Old Testament actually refers to Jesus Christ in His preexistent state. Mormon authority James Talmage explains in his commentary on the official church “Articles of Faith,” “Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors.” (James Talmage, The Study of the Articles of Faith: Being a Consideration of the Principal Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1976, 471.)

A Course Manual of the Mormon Church teaches that: “Jesus is Jehovah. He was the God of the Old Testament. He was born as a spirit son in premortality, the first so born.” (Church Educational System, The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, Course Manual, Section 1, “The Son of the Eternal Father,”; http://institute.lds.org/manuals/New-Testament-institute-student-Manual/nt-in-01-1-3.asp.)

Mormons use some of the “I Am” declarations of Jesus Christ (e.g., “before Abraham was, I Am”) to supposedly illustrate that Jesus acknowledged He was Jehovah, again underscoring Mormon confusion over the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Possibly, however, Jesus may not have remembered that He was Jehovah of the Old Testament for, “When Jesus was born, ‘the veil of forgetfulness common to all who are born to earth, by which the remembrance of primeval existence is shut off’ was cast over him.” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 111); (Church Educational System, The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, Course Manual, Section 1, “The Son of the Eternal Father,”; http://institute.lds.org/manuals/New-Testament-institute-student-Manual/nt-in-01-1-3.asp.)

If the knowledge of Jesus’ status as “Jehovah” is tied to His life in per-existence, then how did He know He was the Jehovah of the Old Testament? In other words, how could Jesus have such knowledge when the “veil of forgetfulness” was “cast over him” as to His preexistent life and identity?
 

The Prophet

Active member
Irreconcilable Without a doubt!

Biblical Teaching: There Is Only One God and Jesus Christ Is the Second Person of the Trinity

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is eternal God, the second Person of the Trinity, and as such He neither could be created by another God, nor be one of God’s created spirit children.

According to the Bible, there is only one God, not endless numbers of them:

Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. (Deut. 4:39)

... there is only one God. (1 Cor. 8:4)

There is no god besides me. (Deut. 32:29)

Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. (Isa. 43:10)

This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6)

Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one. (Isa. 44:8)

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. (Isa. 45:5)

For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God. (Psa. 86:10)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,... (1 Tim. 2:5)

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,... (Col. 2:9)

Mormonism teaches that the Jesus of the New Testament is also the Jehovah of the Old Testament, illustrating Mormon confusion relative to the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. It raises the question of how the first Person of the Trinity could be both the Father and the Son—i.e., how could Elohim be the Father and Jehovah be the Son when biblically, the terms “Elohim” and “Jehovah” referred to the same divine Person?

Mormonism thus fails to properly differentiate the first and second Persons of the Trinity, the Person of the Father and the Person of the Son. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches there are three distinct persons or centers of consciousness within one divine essence; a mystery, but no one should expect to understand an infinite God. That is how He has revealed Himself.

Mormons believe that the term “Jehovah” as used in the Old Testament actually refers to Jesus Christ in His preexistent state. Mormon authority James Talmage explains in his commentary on the official church “Articles of Faith,” “Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors.” (James Talmage, The Study of the Articles of Faith: Being a Consideration of the Principal Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1976, 471.)

A Course Manual of the Mormon Church teaches that: “Jesus is Jehovah. He was the God of the Old Testament. He was born as a spirit son in premortality, the first so born.” (Church Educational System, The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, Course Manual, Section 1, “The Son of the Eternal Father,”; http://institute.lds.org/manuals/New-Testament-institute-student-Manual/nt-in-01-1-3.asp.)

Mormons use some of the “I Am” declarations of Jesus Christ (e.g., “before Abraham was, I Am”) to supposedly illustrate that Jesus acknowledged He was Jehovah, again underscoring Mormon confusion over the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Possibly, however, Jesus may not have remembered that He was Jehovah of the Old Testament for, “When Jesus was born, ‘the veil of forgetfulness common to all who are born to earth, by which the remembrance of primeval existence is shut off’ was cast over him.” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 111); (Church Educational System, The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, Course Manual, Section 1, “The Son of the Eternal Father,”; http://institute.lds.org/manuals/New-Testament-institute-student-Manual/nt-in-01-1-3.asp.)

If the knowledge of Jesus’ status as “Jehovah” is tied to His life in per-existence, then how did He know He was the Jehovah of the Old Testament? In other words, how could Jesus have such knowledge when the “veil of forgetfulness” was “cast over him” as to His preexistent life and identity?
No where in The Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus is the First Born spirit child of God the Father
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
No where in The Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus is the First Born spirit child of God the Father
ok and?
The Mormon Church teaches that Jesus Christ had two births—He was first created at some point eons before the world existed as a spirit child. This occurred through the physical intercourse of the male and female earth gods. He was later created (or more accurately, embodied) as a physical human being when He was born to the “virgin” Mary. This also involved a physical sexual act between God the Father and Mary (see below).

Thus, as to His first birth, Jesus was the first and foremost of the subsequent billions of preexistence spirit children created through physical sexual intercourse between the male earth God (“Adam” of the Garden of Eden, or “Elohim,” depending on early or late Mormonism) and His celestial wife (or one of His wives).

Over the eons through failure, success, learning, discipline and great effort, Jesus earned His way to godhood. Later, in order to produce a body for this special but now divine spirit child, the earth God again had sexual intercourse, but this time with the “virgin” Mary, who then became Jesus’ earthly mother.

As second president of the church, Brigham Young, declared of Christ’s earthly birth, “The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD—was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, 115.)
 
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RCM

Member
But wouldn't you claim the same thing about Biblical NT testimony--which separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and has the God of the OT testifying He has a God and Father also?

LDS err in interpreting Biblical scripture to imply a plurality of gods, instead of interpreting Biblical scripture correctly which declares a plurality within the Oneness of God.

The definitive NT scripture on Jesus is found in John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

The definitive scripture on God in the OT is found in Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" And also in Isaiah 9:6, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Matthew 1:23 states, "Behold, The Virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "GOD with us."

So, all of those scriptures you posted can be interpreted consistently without contradiction or irreconcilable differences within the Biblical doctrine and theology of a plurality within the Oneness of God.

God patterned the 'One Flesh' of marriage after the 'Oneness of God.' There is plurality within the 'Oneness' and 'Oneness' doesn't mean 'Sameness' as there is unity and diversity within that 'Oneness' along with a structure of an authoritative order.



All of this is secondary to the main point of the post,

LDS believe in a sinful disobedient man who progressed unto godhood.

What if this man physically abused his wife and committed incest with his daughters before he progressed unto godhood? Is that a god you want to believe in and serve?

LDS smuggle the Holy God of the Bible into their doctrine so their God can be something to be admired.

However, from what Joseph Smith taught and what is presented in the temple endowment ceremony, the Mormon God was indeed just a fallen man at one point, and what kind of man was he?

All of this LDS doctrine is irreconcilable with Biblical Scripture.



RCM
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
LDS err in interpreting Biblical scripture to imply a plurality of gods, instead of interpreting Biblical scripture correctly which declares a plurality within the Oneness of God.

The definitive NT scripture on Jesus is found in John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

The definitive scripture on God in the OT is found in Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" And also in Isaiah 9:6, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Matthew 1:23 states, "Behold, The Virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "GOD with us."

So, all of those scriptures you posted can be interpreted consistently without contradiction or irreconcilable differences within the Biblical doctrine and theology of a plurality within the Oneness of God.

God patterned the 'One Flesh' of marriage after the 'Oneness of God.' There is plurality within the 'Oneness' and 'Oneness' doesn't mean 'Sameness' as there is unity and diversity within that 'Oneness' along with a structure of an authoritative order.



All of this is secondary to the main point of the post,

LDS believe in a sinful disobedient man who progressed unto godhood.

What if this man physically abused his wife and committed incest with his daughters before he progressed unto godhood? Is that a god you want to believe in and serve?

LDS smuggle the Holy God of the Bible into their doctrine so their God can be something to be admired.

However, from what Joseph Smith taught and what is presented in the temple endowment ceremony, the Mormon God was indeed just a fallen man at one point, and what kind of man was he?

All of this LDS doctrine is irreconcilable with Biblical Scripture.



RCM
Ouch... That's what I call "telling it like it is". Let the deflection (#1) begin!

Mormon apologetic tactics Bonnie has observed on CARM for years:

1. Attempt to deflect from the OP
2. Change the subject--often drastically
3. Repeat the same old questions, over and over again, and....
4. Pretend we have not answered their questions or dealt with their points, to make it appear that we have not, and they have won the debate
5. Ignore our points and Bible verses that put their quoted bible verses into proper perspective, that show that they have misinterpreted and/or misunderstood what the Bible was talking about
6. When they cannot refute what Christians post, fall back onto their "testimony" of their church and prophet, Joseph Smith.
7. Make ad homs against us. Rare. And only used by a very few.
 

Magdalena

Active member
But wouldn't you claim the same thing about Biblical NT testimony--which separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and has the God of the OT testifying He has a God and Father also?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The point was that mormon doctrine teaches God the Father was a human being on an earth like us, not always having been God. Can you address that directly?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The point was that mormon doctrine teaches God the Father was a human being on an earth like us, not always having been God. Can you address that directly?
Exactly! "As man now is, God once was...as God now is, man may become." Well, what is man NOW? Mortal--and sinful! So, HF could have once been a sinful man on "an earth" who had to work his way up to godhood...as we are supposed to do.
 

RCM

Member
Comparing the Mormon God to the Biblical God is like comparing a stagnant polluted trampled swamp to clear fresh mountain spring water.

The one will do nothing good for you and the other is what you are looking for and will satisfy your thirst.

The Mormon God has absolutely nothing in common with the Biblical God!


RCM
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The point was that mormon doctrine teaches God the Father was a human being on an earth like us, not always having been God. Can you address that directly?
Probably not...do not hold your breath, Magdalena....you would suffocate before you would get an actual answer!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Comparing the Mormon God to the Biblical God is like comparing a stagnant polluted trampled swamp to clear fresh mountain spring water.

The one will do nothing good for you and the other is what you are looking for and will satisfy your thirst.

The Mormon God has absolutely nothing in common with the Biblical God!

What a bunch of hooey! More straw man constructions--without the first bit of scriptural evidence. Do you ever build your points on anything but straw?

Gnus of the world--come eat.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Are you claiming just so Jesus was a mortal--He was sinful?
No--because the Snow couplet is about God the Father, not about Jesus Christ. So was what Smith said about God not always being God...he was talking about God the Father in context, wasn't he, dberrie?
 
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