1Thess521
Well-known member
this is what I am trying to say:
what is the point of discussing WHAT is imputed if you claim there is NO imputation:?
FIRST does imputation exist?
in one post you say "no"
in another post you seem to say "yes"
Is anything imputed to a believer?
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what is the point of discussing WHAT is imputed if you claim there is NO imputation:?
FIRST does imputation exist?
in one post you say "no"
in another post you seem to say "yes"
dingoling.
Well-known member
If you could just explain the point you are trying to make that would be great. Thanks.
1Thess521
Well-known member
Step 1- Does imputation take place?
Step 2- If yes, then what is imputed?
we haven't cleared step 1
what is the point of discussing WHAT is imputed if you claim there is NO imputation:?
dingoling.
Well-known member
I answered this. Yes our sins are forgiven.
Our sins are forgiven.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Imputation ~ by ReverendRV * May 27
Romans 5:13 KJV; (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Warning! Reading this Gospel Tract could cost you your life!! Many things come with warning labels these days; medicine comes to mind. Some medicines even come with warnings that they can cause other conditions to develop that you do not want; in clinical studies taking a medicine has led to some patients dying. If a Pill causes a different ailment to develop, this is much like the Biblical understanding of Imputation; adding something to another person’s Being, they didn’t have before. ~ One day, the Evangelist Ray Comfort realized something about the Gospel; it is incomplete without the Bad news of the Ten Commandments prevening (going before) the Good News of the Gospel. He developed an Evangelism method which has led MANY Souls to Salvation. This is where the warning applies; when a Preacher uses the Ten Commandments, God uses the Preacher to Impute the Law of God. Let me show you how this works. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call someone who Lies? A Liar; right? See, when I showed you the Law of God and you saw that you broke it; this changed who you are, and now you are a Liar. Have you ever stolen anything? What do you call a person that Steals? Now you are a Lying Thief. Have you ever Lusted, or Hated anyone? Jesus said Lust makes you an Adulterer at heart and Hatred makes you a Murderer at heart. ~ Imputation awakens something in you that you don’t want to be; Sinners go to Hell for all Eternity…
The Apostle Paul describes it like this; “But Sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the Law of God, produces every kind of Coveting. I was alive without the Law once; but when the Commandment came, Sin revived, and I died.” ~ Sin is in the world; and now in you. The Law is like an alarm clock which wakes the sleeping Giant within. ~ But you don’t have to die in your Sins; since they were Imputed once, they can be Imputed a second time! In the Bible we read about Atoning Sacrifices. In the past on the Day of Atonement, two goats were Sacrificed; one shed it’s blood on an Alter but the other one had the Sins of Israel confessed (Imputed) onto its head, and it was led into the wilderness to never return. This isn’t practiced anymore since there’s no longer a Temple to conduct Sacrifices; but there is an alternative Sacrifice of Atonement we all can benefit from; behold the Lamb of God!
God provided a Sacrifice by sending his very own Son to be born innocent like a spotless sacrificial Lamb. Jesus lived a life of keeping the Ten Commandments and this pleased God. There came a time that Jesus had to die and shed his blood on the Cross like the goat of old. But Jesus is also like the Scapegoat, the Sins of every believer was Imputed to this innocent man; to never be seen again. We are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! When we do this there is a third Imputation; Christ’s good record is now your good record, and you are good enough to go to Heaven. Find a Bible believing Church, Repent of your sins and Confess Jesus to be your Lord God. ~ Imputation is often translated as a credit that goes to your account; having an Eternal Being’s goodness as your very own, is Priceless and can never be exhausted…
Romans 4:3 ESV; For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Romans 5:13 KJV; (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Warning! Reading this Gospel Tract could cost you your life!! Many things come with warning labels these days; medicine comes to mind. Some medicines even come with warnings that they can cause other conditions to develop that you do not want; in clinical studies taking a medicine has led to some patients dying. If a Pill causes a different ailment to develop, this is much like the Biblical understanding of Imputation; adding something to another person’s Being, they didn’t have before. ~ One day, the Evangelist Ray Comfort realized something about the Gospel; it is incomplete without the Bad news of the Ten Commandments prevening (going before) the Good News of the Gospel. He developed an Evangelism method which has led MANY Souls to Salvation. This is where the warning applies; when a Preacher uses the Ten Commandments, God uses the Preacher to Impute the Law of God. Let me show you how this works. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call someone who Lies? A Liar; right? See, when I showed you the Law of God and you saw that you broke it; this changed who you are, and now you are a Liar. Have you ever stolen anything? What do you call a person that Steals? Now you are a Lying Thief. Have you ever Lusted, or Hated anyone? Jesus said Lust makes you an Adulterer at heart and Hatred makes you a Murderer at heart. ~ Imputation awakens something in you that you don’t want to be; Sinners go to Hell for all Eternity…
The Apostle Paul describes it like this; “But Sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the Law of God, produces every kind of Coveting. I was alive without the Law once; but when the Commandment came, Sin revived, and I died.” ~ Sin is in the world; and now in you. The Law is like an alarm clock which wakes the sleeping Giant within. ~ But you don’t have to die in your Sins; since they were Imputed once, they can be Imputed a second time! In the Bible we read about Atoning Sacrifices. In the past on the Day of Atonement, two goats were Sacrificed; one shed it’s blood on an Alter but the other one had the Sins of Israel confessed (Imputed) onto its head, and it was led into the wilderness to never return. This isn’t practiced anymore since there’s no longer a Temple to conduct Sacrifices; but there is an alternative Sacrifice of Atonement we all can benefit from; behold the Lamb of God!
God provided a Sacrifice by sending his very own Son to be born innocent like a spotless sacrificial Lamb. Jesus lived a life of keeping the Ten Commandments and this pleased God. There came a time that Jesus had to die and shed his blood on the Cross like the goat of old. But Jesus is also like the Scapegoat, the Sins of every believer was Imputed to this innocent man; to never be seen again. We are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! When we do this there is a third Imputation; Christ’s good record is now your good record, and you are good enough to go to Heaven. Find a Bible believing Church, Repent of your sins and Confess Jesus to be your Lord God. ~ Imputation is often translated as a credit that goes to your account; having an Eternal Being’s goodness as your very own, is Priceless and can never be exhausted…
Romans 4:3 ESV; For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
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1Thess521
Well-known member
Step 1- Does imputation take place?
that is the first time you answered "yes"!!!
in the past you have said "no"
100 posts later,,,,
that is the first time you answered "yes"!!!
in the past you have said "no"
so we can we move forward with something is imputed to us?
dingoling.
Well-known member
Yes are sins have been forgiven. That is what reckoned/imputed as righteous means.
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1Thess521
Well-known member
Now that we have established that something is imputed:
I will be starting a new thread to discuss the "what" that is imputed:
1Thess521
Well-known member
@dingoling.
- What is it that is imputed?
After figurately pulling some teeth, and a 100 posts later we have a concession that something is imputed. This thread is about what is that thing that is imputed, So @dingoling. and other Catholics read the verses below and answer: What is it that is imputed? (the OP) Romans 4:6 NIV David...
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Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Yup - The indwelling Holy Spirit from John 20:22 on forward.
Yes, on both counts (...but only as fruits of the Spirit!).
Any action/deed/mental deed/physical deed that is brought about as the fruit of the Spirit acting in us is a good fruit and a righteous act.
Paul says very clearly that Abraham believing that God was able to give him a child was something that gave glory to God and "this is why" it was reckoned or counted as a righteous act/an act of righteousness/as righteousness.
My impression of the Reformation is that it taught that we are never actually righteous in our deeds, so that deeds are "imputed" to be righteous because they are not actually righteous - not even our faith is righteous. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
In contrast, the Catholic view has always been that God makes us in fact intrinsically righteous in our own actions...by making our actions be the fruits of the Spirit.
(I'm focusing on the intrinsic righteousness of our deeds when they are the fruit of the Spirit, and putting aside for now the separate topics of what they merit or don't merit)
(this post is also in answer to "a new day")
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Well without faith our deeds are nothing. Scritpure is clear on that point.
Isaiah 64:6 B ut we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
The RCs focus on works and not faith, they imply works are saving. Grace through faith saves and that is what makes our works right in God's eyes. Because they come from His work in us.
You caricature the beliefs of others and that is because you do not understand them.
Without the Spirit to give us the faith, our faith is also nothing.
Yes, anything that is not the fruit of the Spirit is as a filthy rag.
Those deeds which "come from His work in us" are fruits of the Spirit. The fact that they are fruits of the Spirit is what makes our works right in God's eyes. They are in fact intrinsically good acts.
I gave my impression of the Reformation teaching, and asked to be corrected if I was wrong. Please feel free to explain your views.
First faith and from that we are changed. If we are changed then our works are changed.
eph 2:8+ 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come
So many verses that support this. After this it is shown by our works, enter the James passages so often misused by RCs.
This is not what I was taught by the nuns.
I'd say that even that first faith is the beginning of the change, as even that faith is only by the Spirit acting in you and drawing you to God.
But yes, if we are changed then our works are changed.
"to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do"
Yes, so these new works are intrinsically good works (not rags)
That's right. "If we are changed"...is the act of God bringing about a new creation - a new being who is intrinsically good and loving and does the good works prepared in advance for him or her to do (a child of God)
I must believe you were taught that you should be good. But it sounds like you thought you had to do it on your own.
They should have been teaching you to be good by putting into practice the goodness that you will find within you.
I would assume the nuns would have told you that the Spirit poured love into your heart for you to use.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
When you believe the gospel, the power of God is what is imputed to you by His Spirit. No one without the infilling of the Holy Spirit is free from sin, the one hindrance to heaven. A true Christian lives a life free from sin according to the laws imprinted on their conscience. But they still have free will so are commanded to NOT quench the Spirit, the source of the power. There are different levels of obedience; therefore a baby Christian has less laws to keep than a mature Christian. Where much is given much is required.
Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Philippians 3:12-16
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
Yes but you would be wrong. God does not change ever. We were always taught it was on our own. No help at all. We were given impossible examples of the RC Mary to live up to. No they didn't so you like most RCs assumption wrongly.
Mary was the focus of their teachings. The HS only mentioned when we made our confirmations.
Then I am glad for you that God steered you to the true teaching elsewhere.
I obviously wasn't there, and we are asked not to judge anyway, but if the message you heard was that you are on your own, then you should know that is not Catholic teaching.
You are decidedly not on your own. That's the whole point of Christianity, that you are given the Spirit by simply believing and being open to God's love and grace. The Spirit was won for you by Jesus on the cross, and now brings all these things you wish for directly into you. You have love in you. It is in you. This love just needs to be put into use. Use it to be kind, compassionate, patient with people. You have the same love in you as Mary had in her, and both from the same source - God.
That not judging is rubbish so RCs can ignore 1 Cor 5:11. Of course we to judge, the word discernment is another word for judging the same as the word testing.
We are to judge what we are taught, we are to test the spirits, we are to judge the fruit. What we cannot judge is where a person will end up after death that is God's domain and not ours.
1 Cor 5:12+ For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
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