Is automatic excommunication hyprocrisy?

balshan

Well-known member
The RCC automatically excommunicates those who are involved with abortions or who have an abortion because it is a grave sin. The problem is that priests who abuse, in persona Christi, are not automatically excommunicated. Is the harming of children not a grave sin?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
The RCC automatically excommunicates those who are involved with abortions or who have an abortion because it is a grave sin. The problem is that priests who abuse, in persona Christi, are not automatically excommunicated. Is the harming of children not a grave sin?
It's not because it's a grave sin but because of the immensely high incidence of this evil. Excommunication is always used as a warning to encourage sinners to repent. By having an automatic excommunication for procuring/performing an abortion, the Church is trying to get believers to open their eyes about how terrible this crime is.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
It's not because it's a grave sin but because of the immensely high incidence of this evil. Excommunication is always used as a warning to encourage sinners to repent. By having an automatic excommunication for procuring/performing an abortion, the Church is trying to get believers to open their eyes about how terrible this crime is.
Why then is not automatic excommunication for abusing children; would not the Church be trying to get priests to open their eyes about how terrible this crime is?
 

balshan

Well-known member
It's not because it's a grave sin but because of the immensely high incidence of this evil. Excommunication is always used as a warning to encourage sinners to repent. By having an automatic excommunication for procuring/performing an abortion, the Church is trying to get believers to open their eyes about how terrible this crime is.
Well those abusive priest committed a grave sin that was immensely high incident of this evil. Jesus loved children. Excommunication maybe would have been a good warning. So what I get from this post is that raping children does not need the institution to get believers to open their eyes about how terrible this crime is. Gotcha abortion immensely evil, raping children not so much is how the institution sees the matter.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Why then is not automatic excommunication for abusing children; would not the Church be trying to get priests to open their eyes about how terrible this crime is?
Because there is nowhere near as high an incidence of this as abortion and can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps this could be changed in the future.

Priests, fathers, uncles, teachers, doctors... whoever abuses children should recognise it is a terrible crime. It's already grave matter - and so potentially mortally sinful. One of the differences is that society doesn't accept it, while it's happy to accept and promote abortion. So, in that case, something extra might need to be done.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Well those abusive priest committed a grave sin that was immensely high incident of this evil. Jesus loved children. Excommunication maybe would have been a good warning. So what I get from this post is that raping children does not need the institution to get believers to open their eyes about how terrible this crime is. Gotcha abortion immensely evil, raping children not so much is how the institution sees the matter.
I said it was also the high incidence of abortion that made part of the difference. It also is the reason why excommunication exists - it's to warn people to get them to repent. With abhorrent actions like child abuse this is clearer as the evil that it is - our society rallies against it (and rightly so). With abortion, it isn't - our society endorses and at times encourages abortion.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Because there is nowhere near as high an incidence of this as abortion and can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps this could be changed in the future.

Priests, fathers, uncles, teachers, doctors... whoever abuses children should recognise it is a terrible crime. It's already grave matter - and so potentially mortally sinful. One of the differences is that society doesn't accept it, while it's happy to accept and promote abortion. So, in that case, something extra might need to be done.
Well whether society accepts or not makes no difference. What a pathetic defence of the double standards. The sins are both grave, immensely high incident as you liked to put it. Yet one is excommunicated and one is hey fine okay not so bad. Show where Jesus would have said it is better to abuse and rape children than it is to abort babies. Both destroy the victims. To my mind if you are a leader and a teacher sprouting religious facts and then you do the grave sin, it is far worse. Your knowledge is greater. All those involved in child abuse should be automatically excommunicated and sacked from their positions and their titles removed.
 

balshan

Well-known member
I said it was also the high incidence of abortion that made part of the difference. It also is the reason why excommunication exists - it's to warn people to get them to repent. With abhorrent actions like child abuse this is clearer as the evil that it is - our society rallies against it (and rightly so). With abortion, it isn't - our society endorses and at times encourages abortion.
So you are sprouting that a sin is worse if more people commit it. Gotcha is that biblical? Is that in the catechism? What a load of hogwash and even you cannot believe that defence of the double standards. Sin is sin. Both harm those who cannot defend themselves. Both should have the same consequence. Do more RCs get abortions than there are abusive leaders? Statistics please. If the RCs don't know abortion is a grave sin but they know that abusing children is a grave sin: then which is worse the sin done with knowledge or without?

Shows how poor RC teaching is.
 

balshan

Well-known member
There is no difference in the graveness of the sin. Therefore, the consequences should be the same automatic excommunication. Otherwise it is hypocrisy.

Matt 5:7-9

You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

Romans 2:3

Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Luke 12:2

Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

This is what can be said of such leaders, who cover up and lessen the sin of leaders:

Titus 1:16

They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Double standards. One is against the laity, the other the leaders of your institution. Laity automatic excommunication, the leaders hidden and when exposed still no consequences.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Well whether society accepts or not makes no difference. What a pathetic defence of the double standards.
That shows you don't understand what excommunication is about. It has nothing to do with the state of one's soul but one's participation in the Church.
The sins are both grave, immensely high incident as you liked to put it. Yet one is excommunicated and one is hey fine okay not so bad. Show where Jesus would have said it is better to abuse and rape children than it is to abort babies. Both destroy the victims.
Agreed. And both would be mortally sinful if the right conditions applied.
To my mind if you are a leader and a teacher sprouting religious facts and then you do the grave sin, it is far worse. Your knowledge is greater. All those involved in child abuse should be automatically excommunicated and sacked from their positions and their titles removed.
If a Church leader has been found guilty of abusing children, they should certainly be removed from their positions.
 

balshan

Well-known member
That shows you don't understand what excommunication is about. It has nothing to do with the state of one's soul but one's participation in the Church.

Agreed. And both would be mortally sinful if the right conditions applied.

If a Church leader has been found guilty of abusing children, they should certainly be removed from their positions.
I have never said it had anything to do with the state of one's soul. Misinterpreting again. I am pointing out the double standards and the hypocrisy relating to automatic excommunication. Laity is automatically excommunicated, abusive priests are not. The leaders are only removed if they are in jail and it is only while they are in jail. So the rules should be consistent.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
So you are sprouting that a sin is worse if more people commit it. Gotcha is that biblical? Is that in the catechism? What a load of hogwash and even you cannot believe that defence of the double standards.
Again, no. Excommunication doesn't have to do with dealing with sin but with participation in the Church.
Sin is sin. Both harm those who cannot defend themselves. Both should have the same consequence.
They would both be mortally sinful if the conditions pertained.
Do more RCs get abortions than there are abusive leaders? Statistics please.
From: https://www.guttmacher.org/report/characteristics-us-abortion-patients-2014

As a general summary, it seems 24% of medical abortion patients in the US were Catholic. There are between 650,00-700,000 abortions in the US per year. So, let's say about 160,800 medical abortions are carried out on Catholic women per year. This figure does not take into account the partners who may support it, the doctors who perform it, and pharmaceutical abortions.

According to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catho...4 research,sexual abuse by 10,667 individuals, over the last fifty years, about 10,667 individuals have reported being abused in a Catholic institution. This figure does not take into account those who did not come forward.

So, if we project this figure over a space of 50 years, we have: 10,667 incidents of child abuse and 8,040,000 incidents of abortion.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Again, no. Excommunication doesn't have to do with dealing with sin but with participation in the Church.

They would both be mortally sinful if the conditions pertained.

From: https://www.guttmacher.org/report/characteristics-us-abortion-patients-2014

As a general summary, it seems 24% of medical abortion patients in the US were Catholic. There are between 650,00-700,000 abortions in the US per year. So, let's say about 160,800 medical abortions are carried out on Catholic women per year. This figure does not take into account the partners who may support it, the doctors who perform it, and pharmaceutical abortions.

According to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases#:~:text=According to a 2004 research,sexual abuse by 10,667 individuals, over the last fifty years, about 10,667 individuals have reported being abused in a Catholic institution. This figure does not take into account those who did not come forward.

So, if we project this figure over a space of 50 years, we have: 10,667 incidents of child abuse and 8,040,000 incidents of abortion.
Again how stupid do you think I am. I understand about excommunication, again I ask where did I say it was dealing with sin. Please show me. Otherwise stop treating me as stupid and stop lying about the point I am making. I am saying the discipline should be the same for abortion and child abuse especially those who claim to be leaders. No difference at all. Stop makiing pathetic excuses for your leaders being let off the hook and laity being disciplined.

So are all of those cases of abortions RCs. Please show me where scripture states a consequence of discipline is based on the number of cases. Please I didn't not know a sin is more grave if more people did it. I would disagree with the figures about child abuse but hey wiki is a reliable source. I don't think.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I have never said it had anything to do with the state of one's soul. Misinterpreting again. I am pointing out the double standards and the hypocrisy relating to automatic excommunication. Laity is automatically excommunicated, abusive priests are not. The leaders are only removed if they are in jail and it is only while they are in jail. So the rules should be consistent.
But you are basing the automatic excommunication on how bad the sin is but that's not excommunication is about, nor is it really the purpose of excommunication.
 

balshan

Well-known member
But you are basing the automatic excommunication on how bad the sin is but that's not excommunication is about, nor is it really the purpose of excommunication.
No I am not basing it on how bad the sin is, I think all sin is bad. I am basing it on the fact that in both cases the victims are children. One is done by a lay member and the other a leader and the consequences of discipline are different. I see the hypocrisy. One discipline for leaders and another for laity.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Again how stupid do you think I am. I understand about excommunication, again I ask where did I say it was dealing with sin. Please show me. Otherwise stop treating me as stupid and stop lying about the point I am making. I am saying the discipline should be the same for abortion and child abuse especially those who claim to be leaders. No difference at all. Stop makiing pathetic excuses for your leaders being let off the hook and laity being disciplined.
Why should the discipline be the same for both of them? I'm quite happy for leaders found guilty of such sins to be excommunicated.
So are all of those cases of abortions RCs.
The numbers I gave were from people who had medical abortions and gave their religious affiliation as Catholic.
Please show me where scripture states a consequence of discipline is based on the number of cases.
There isn't but disciplines are based on all sorts of things, depending on what the discipline is for and the people involved. The Church can set disciplines how she sees appropriate.
Please I didn't not know a sin is more grave if more people did it. I would disagree with the figures about child abuse but hey wiki is a reliable source. I don't think.
A sin isn't more grave if more people do it, however, if it occurs frequently in the context of a society that is generally accepting of it, it becomes more problematic.

The John Jay Report listed 11,000 allegations made (not necessarily 11,000 convictions of guilt).
 

balshan

Well-known member
Why should the discipline be the same for both of them? I'm quite happy for leaders found guilty of such sins to be excommunicated.

The numbers I gave were from people who had medical abortions and gave their religious affiliation as Catholic.

There isn't but disciplines are based on all sorts of things, depending on what the discipline is for and the people involved. The Church can set disciplines how she sees appropriate.

A sin isn't more grave if more people do it, however, if it occurs frequently in the context of a society that is generally accepting of it, it becomes more problematic.

The John Jay Report listed 11,000 allegations made (not necessarily 11,000 convictions of guilt).
And that is what is wrong with your institution. One rule for the rich (leaders) and another for the poor (laity). It does not pass the pub test and if it doesn't pass that then it certainly does not pass God's test.

Not talking about one sin being graver than anothe, or more popular than another. I mean if it is a numbers game, just add in all the RC laity who were abusers. Sin is sin but church discipline should treat all people as equal. Or cares about what a report listed or didn't list. The concept of society which leaders are treated with less discipline than laity is problematic. The public see the hypocrisy. You are trying to divert from the op. Should not discipline be the same for all. If not it is hypocrisy. All you doing is proving that the institution is hypocritical.

If you are happy for them to be excommunicated make it happen.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
And that is what is wrong with your institution. One rule for the rich (leaders) and another for the poor (laity). It does not pass the pub test and if it doesn't pass that then it certainly does not pass God's test.
Okay. Let's use your principle: excommunication for X sins. Which sins and why?
Not talking about one sin being graver than anothe, or more popular than another. I mean if it is a numbers game, just add in all the RC laity who were abusers. Sin is sin but church discipline should treat all people as equal. Or cares about what a report listed or didn't list. The concept of society which leaders are treated with less discipline than laity is problematic. The public see the hypocrisy. You are trying to divert from the op. Should not discipline be the same for all. If not it is hypocrisy. All you doing is proving that the institution is hypocritical.
It does. If a priest or nun or monk commits a mortal sin, it's still a mortal sin.
If you are happy for them to be excommunicated make it happen.
I don't have the authority to do that.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Okay. Let's use your principle: excommunication for X sins. Which sins and why?

It does. If a priest or nun or monk commits a mortal sin, it's still a mortal sin.

I don't have the authority to do that.
Yep so what. If a mortal sin, is still a mortal sin. Laity automatically excommunicated, leaders who rape children no automatic excommunication. You don't have the authority, so you are all talk and no action. No surprise. I am sure you with all your contacts with Bishops etc could put pressure on for them to change and make it the same rules for both laity and leaders.

It shows the hypocrisy within your institution. Try to stay on topic. The RCC's automatic excommunication discipline is hypocritical.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Yep so what. If a mortal sin, is still a mortal sin. Laity automatically excommunicated, leaders who rape children no automatic excommunication. You don't have the authority, so you are all talk and no action. No surprise. I am sure you with all your contacts with Bishops etc could put pressure on for them to change and make it the same rules for both laity and leaders.
Aren't the rules the same though? If a religious (nun) or a priest procures an abortion or performs one, they are excommunicated too. Similarly, if a lay member commits sexual sin they are not automatically excommunicated. How are the rules not the same?

But I want to return to a discussion of excommunication. If you are going to excommunicate Christians for sins, which would they be and why?
 
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