Is Election a Heavenly blessing ?

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Nothing to ignore

It does not say faith is the gift and I have addressed it many times

You however ignore the fact

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

we are plainly told what the gift is
Sure it does. Read it again

And how do you attain eternal life? By faith right? A gift of God
 
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TomFL

Guest
Sure it does. Read it again

And how do you attain eternal life? By faith right? A gift of God
sorry you are not able to demonstrate that

Neither syntax or grammar support your claim

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

Ephesians 2:8, 9 is therefore the key passage: “For by grace [instrumental case, t chariti, by the instrumentality of grace] you have been saved [periphrastic perfect, looking at the present condition that flows from the prior act] through faith [dia plus the genitive, intermediate agency]; and this [neuter touto] not of you, the gift of God; not of works, in order that one may not boast. There are two reasons, one grammatical and one syntactical, for insisting that “this” does not refer back to “faith.” Grammatically, “faith” is feminine and “this” is neuter. Only an unnatural stretching of the possibilities of Greek grammar can read “faith” as the antecedent of “this.” Syntactically, the fact (often overlooked) is that there are three complements of “this” which follow it: (1) “this” (is) not of you, (2) “this” (is) God’s gift, (3) “this” (is) not of works, lest anyone boast. To read “faith” with “this” might make some kind of sense for the first two of these, but it will not work with the third: “this faith is not of works” would be nonsensical tautology in view of the fact that works is in contrast to faith already. In Ephesians 2:8, 9, therefore, “this” has for its antecedent the entire preceding clause. This fits the “rules” of Greek grammar that called for a neuter pronoun to refer to a verbal idea, and it makes perfectly good sense in the context. “By grace you have been saved by faith: and this saving experience is not of you but is the gift of God, not of works lest any boast.”



Picirilli, Robert. Grace Faith Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism & Arminianism (p. 166). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.
 
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guest1

Guest
As expected you provide no scriptural support for your claim

Salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Saving faith is never stated to be a gift which is irresistibly given to one and withheld from another

BTW Not even Calvin thinks Eph 2:8 makes faith the gift
Neither have you just stating your opinion is eisegesis, we are waiting for an exegetical response with Ephesians 2:8.

hope this helps !!!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
sorry you are not able to demonstrate that

Neither syntax or grammar support your claim

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

Ephesians 2:8, 9 is therefore the key passage: “For by grace [instrumental case, t chariti, by the instrumentality of grace] you have been saved [periphrastic perfect, looking at the present condition that flows from the prior act] through faith [dia plus the genitive, intermediate agency]; and this [neuter touto] not of you, the gift of God; not of works, in order that one may not boast. There are two reasons, one grammatical and one syntactical, for insisting that “this” does not refer back to “faith.” Grammatically, “faith” is feminine and “this” is neuter. Only an unnatural stretching of the possibilities of Greek grammar can read “faith” as the antecedent of “this.” Syntactically, the fact (often overlooked) is that there are three complements of “this” which follow it: (1) “this” (is) not of you, (2) “this” (is) God’s gift, (3) “this” (is) not of works, lest anyone boast. To read “faith” with “this” might make some kind of sense for the first two of these, but it will not work with the third: “this faith is not of works” would be nonsensical tautology in view of the fact that works is in contrast to faith already. In Ephesians 2:8, 9, therefore, “this” has for its antecedent the entire preceding clause. This fits the “rules” of Greek grammar that called for a neuter pronoun to refer to a verbal idea, and it makes perfectly good sense in the context. “By grace you have been saved by faith: and this saving experience is not of you but is the gift of God, not of works lest any boast.”



Picirilli, Robert. Grace Faith Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism & Arminianism (p. 166). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.
So what is the gift then? It it's salvation then why not just give it to everyone? He loves all, wants to save all, sends His Son to save all yet He does not. How come?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Neither have you just stating your opinion is eisegesis, we are waiting for an exegetical response with Ephesians 2:8.

hope this helps !!!
Wrong

i provided scripture Rom 6:23 which shows what the gift is

elsewhere i provided both grammatical and syntactical argumentation
 
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TomFL

Guest
So what is the gift then? It it's salvation then why not just give it to everyone? He loves all, wants to save all, sends His Son to save all yet He does not. How come?
Salvation

that is what the context of ephesians 2 determines

Salvation is only in Christ

If mankind fell in Adam it could only be made alive in Christ
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
sorry you are not able to demonstrate that

Neither syntax or grammar support your claim

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

Ephesians 2:8, 9 is therefore the key passage: “For by grace [instrumental case, t chariti, by the instrumentality of grace] you have been saved [periphrastic perfect, looking at the present condition that flows from the prior act] through faith [dia plus the genitive, intermediate agency]; and this [neuter touto] not of you, the gift of God; not of works, in order that one may not boast. There are two reasons, one grammatical and one syntactical, for insisting that “this” does not refer back to “faith.” Grammatically, “faith” is feminine and “this” is neuter. Only an unnatural stretching of the possibilities of Greek grammar can read “faith” as the antecedent of “this.” Syntactically, the fact (often overlooked) is that there are three complements of “this” which follow it: (1) “this” (is) not of you, (2) “this” (is) God’s gift, (3) “this” (is) not of works, lest anyone boast. To read “faith” with “this” might make some kind of sense for the first two of these, but it will not work with the third: “this faith is not of works” would be nonsensical tautology in view of the fact that works is in contrast to faith already. In Ephesians 2:8, 9, therefore, “this” has for its antecedent the entire preceding clause. This fits the “rules” of Greek grammar that called for a neuter pronoun to refer to a verbal idea, and it makes perfectly good sense in the context. “By grace you have been saved by faith: and this saving experience is not of you but is the gift of God, not of works lest any boast.”



Picirilli, Robert. Grace Faith Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism & Arminianism (p. 166). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.
So what is the gift then? It it's salvation then why not just give it to everyone? He loves all, wants to save all, sends His Son to save all yet He does not. How come?
Salvation

that is what the context of ephesians 2 determines

Salvation is only in Christ

If mankind fell in Adam it could only be made alive in Christ
So why not give it to all? It's a gift. He can give it to whomever He likes. He sent His Son to die for all right? Quite unsuccessfully I might add.
 
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TomFL

Guest
So could God give this gift without faith?
God can do whatever he wants as long as it is consistent with his own nature

The question here however is what did he do

Scripture testifies he gives the gift of salvation to those who believe
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
God can do whatever he wants as long as it is consistent with his own nature

The question here however is what did he do

Scripture testifies he gives the gift of salvation to those who believe
You did not answer my question. Does faith have to be exercised in order for God to give the "gift" of salvation?
 
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TomFL

Guest
You did not answer my question. Does faith have to be exercised in order for God to give the "gift" of salvation?
That was not your question

Reformedguy said:
So could God give this gift without faith?
and it was answered

God can do whatever he wants as long as it is consistent with his own nature

as for your latest question the answer is yes

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
That was not your question


and it was answered

God can do whatever he wants as long as it is consistent with his own nature

as for your latest question the answer is yes

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
So it's not really a gift then? It's more like a reward for making the correct choice
 
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TomFL

Guest
So it's not really a gift then? It's more like a reward for making the correct choice
No

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
No

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Yes it is. Make the right choice you get this. That's not a gift, that's a reward
 
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TomFL

Guest
Yes it is. Make the right choice you get this. That's not a gift, that's a reward
Not if you believe scripture

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

personally I find scripture more persuasive than your theology
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Not if you believe scripture

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

personally I find scripture more persuasive than your theology
It's simple logic. In your stupid theology it's a reward for making the right choice.
 
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TomFL

Guest
It's simple logic. In your stupid theology it's a reward for making the right choice.
So you don't believe scripture

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

personally I find scripture more persuasive than your theology
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
So you don't believe scripture

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

personally I find scripture more persuasive than your theology
In Tom's theology salvation is a reward not a gift. You, in and of yourself, exercise faith/believe and therefore are rewarded. God gets no credit for your faith but He dies pass out candy to those who make the right choice.
 
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guest1

Guest
Wrong

i provided scripture Rom 6:23 which shows what the gift is

elsewhere i provided both grammatical and syntactical argumentation
No the gift is in Ephesians 2:8. Try staying with the text, ie the “ context”.
 
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TomFL

Guest
In Tom's theology salvation is a reward not a gift. You, in and of yourself, exercise faith/believe and therefore are rewarded. God gets no credit for your faith but He dies pass out candy to those who make the right choice.
Tom says what the bible says

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

not your false statement
 
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