Is evil necessary to have good, and is that why God allows evil?

Unknown Soldier

Active member
The two premises and the conclusion. The entire argument.
OK. Please clarify what you're referring to.
We need good in the world.
Why do you disagree with this premise? Are you saying that good is optional?
We can't have good without evil.
This is the premise where we get into trouble.
Therefore, we must endure evil to experience good.
The conclusion here is at least half true. Logically, we can have good without evil, but in the real world, enduring evil is often the price of experiencing good later on.

Anyway, Christian apologist William Lane Craig's theodicy is that God can have reasons to allow evil for now so we are well off in the end. So he's implying that we suffer evil because suffering evil is necessary even for God to grant us good for us later on.
I totally understand that that is not true.
Good. Then we agree on at least that much.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Given that you are incapable of articulating these logical or factual errors, you have effectively conceded the points I've made. Thanks for playing, but you aren't presenting logical arguments to begin with. You're posing arguments that no one is making, and I'm not the only one who has noticed this blatant tactic either.
What really threw me was your claim that a person eating pie has no way to know how delicious it is. Am I supposed to try to argue that eating tasty food is a good way to know what delicious is?
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Why do you disagree with this premise? Are you saying that good is optional?
Why do we need good in the world as opposed to there is good in the world.
This is the premise where we get into trouble.
In this current world we have good and evil but I don't think that they (good and evil) are contingent upon each other or opposite side of the same coin. Good comes from God and Evil comes from the devil. Take the devil out of the picture and we will have only good.
The conclusion here is at least half true. Logically, we can have good without evil, but in the real world, enduring evil is often the price of experiencing good later on.
That seems to be the case in this world since it is ruled by the evil one. But since we are "in Christ" we can endure evil with great joy and peace if we keep our minds on Him.
Anyway, Christian apologist William Lane Craig's theodicy is that God can have reasons to allow evil for now so we are well off in the end. So he's implying that we suffer evil because suffering evil is necessary even for God to grant us good for us later on.
Would you mind sharing the link to where you found this quote of WLC?
Good. Then we agree on at least that much.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
What really threw me was your claim that a person eating pie has no way to know how delicious it is. Am I supposed to try to argue that eating tasty food is a good way to know what delicious is?
This doesn't need to be so complicated. I'm quite simply pointing out that if each and every pie you consume tastes exactly the same, there is no way to claim it's better or worse than any other pie. The same holds true for ideas like "good" and "evil". If one doesn't exist, then you cannot claim a polar opposite in the first place.

For example, the flat earthers will openly admit that there is a north pole, yet completely ignore the fact that you cannot have a north pole without a south pole. Polarity requires TWO poles. See the problem yet?

Likewise, you cannot logically or conceptually or meaningfully speak of "good" absent the idea of "evil". I'm not suggesting that good isn't good. I'm pointing out that it is not a meaningfull word without the idea of "evil". It is essentially equivalent to the idea of "same" or "sameness"

So while I can see that Satan doesn't need to exist for God to exist, it makes no sense to say that God is good when evil doesn't exist because without evil or the idea of evil, good is all there is. Again, it's like saying that nothing is good or evil. Nothing is the same regardless of how one describes it or whatever one chooses to attribute to nothing.

One must diligently distinguish between the concept of nothing (which conceptually speaking is something) and nothing (which doesn't exist) to comprehend what I'm referring to. There are no gradations of that which is the same. Nothing is a prime example, and when we apply this principle to your example of good without evil, we get the same result.

You claim that there are gradations of good, but this is just semantics because to diverge from either absolute or transcendent good, one is no longer on the good path. It's not a lesser or different path. It's pure evil. This is why Jesus says, "Only God is good".

The apple pies are good, but if they all taste the same, there is nothing to distinguish between better, worse, or pure evil. Good ceases to mean much of anything especially if they have ALWAYS tasted the same.

We don't live in a world where pies have always tasted the same. We don't live in a world where evil doesn't exist. You're pretending that we can understand good when it is the exact same as everything else. That's just a pipe dream. It could just as likely be pure evil. How would you know without anything to distinguish it from?
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Why do we need good in the world as opposed to there is good in the world.
I don't understand what you're saying here. I asked why you disagreed with the premise: We need good in the world.
In this current world we have good and evil but I don't think that they (good and evil) are contingent upon each other or opposite side of the same coin.
If by "contingent upon each other" you mean that good cannot exist without evil or evil cannot exist without good, then I think that that is obviously correct. I remember poking fun at the claim some Christians were making in another forum that evil is necessary to have good. I quipped that we better not try to cure cancer considering what great good it must be doing.
Good comes from God and Evil comes from the devil.
The KJV Bible translates Isaiah 45:7 this way:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
It makes sense that God is said to create evil because God is the creator, after all.
Take the devil out of the picture and we will have only good.
I'm not so sure of that because all people sin, and since we are said to have free will, then we sin of our own will.
That seems to be the case in this world since it is ruled by the evil one. But since we are "in Christ" we can endure evil with great joy and peace if we keep our minds on Him.
Many apologists argue that suffering builds good character in those who endure it. I must disagree. I've known many people in my life who have suffered great hardship, and almost all of them have been angry, abusive, dishonest, and untrustworthy people. They tend to lie and cheat to overcome the obstacles they face in life. I do agree, though, that Jesus calls his followers to endure what they suffer for Him with gladness although almost no Christian is happy suffering for Jesus. In fact, many Christians who are mocked for their faith will lash out at their revilers.
Would you mind sharing the link to where you found this quote of WLC?
When I mentioned Craig's view on God and evil I didn't have any particular source in mind. I've seen a lot of Craig's videos on YouTube, and that's how I became acquainted with his beliefs on God and evil. I'd recommend you search YouTube for that information.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Christians...in another forum that evil is necessary to have good. I quipped that we better not try to cure cancer considering what great good it must be doing.
Cancer cells serve a very useful purpose. They prevent cellular death due to oxygen deprivation. They alert those who are aware that there isn't enough oxygen getting to these areas where cancer is spreading. The same holds true for an acidic environment in the body.

Cancer cells do not degrade or age due to telomerase shortening, For this reason, they're referred to as "immortal", and the genetic code from ordinary cells can be implanted into these cells and vice versa.
all people sin, and since we are said to have free will, then we sin of our own will.
False. Non Sequitur. This doesn't take into consideration that biblically speaking, sin is distinguished or divided into two categories: willful or voluntary, and unintentional or accidental. By definition, the latter cannot be willful.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Unlike you, there are multiple witnesses who see what you're doing.
They caught be red-handed correcting your errors--or at least a small fraction of that huge pile of errors you've posted.

Anyway, if I didn't want people to see what I've posted, then why would I have posted it to begin with?
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
shnarkle said:
Ignorance is bliss.
So I've noticed!
Confession of Wickedness
The way of peace they have not known.
Righteousness does not reach them.
They hope for light, but there is darkness; Isaiah 59:7-9

Give glory to the Lord your God Before He causes darkness, And before your feet stumble On the dark mountains,
And while you are looking for light, He turns it into the shadow of death And makes it dense darkness. Jer 13:16
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
I know it won't do me any good to correct you,
It won't do me any good either. What we need from you is for you to exert some serious intent to comprehend what is being posted for your inspection.
but it doesn't follow that if only God is good, then evil doesn't exist.
Here's what I posted: "If only God exists....etc." Now compare that to what you just claim I posted: "if only God is good, then...etc." See the difference???
If I'm the only person who is smart, then concluding that nobody is stupid would be, excuse me, stupid.
If you're the only person who exists, then concluding that nobody is stupid would be stupid primarily because nobody, by definition, doesn't exist in the first place.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Here's what I posted: "If only God exists....etc." Now compare that to what you just claim I posted: "if only God is good, then...etc." See the difference???
I just checked the entire thread and aside your post #116, the phrase "If only God exists..." does not appear anywhere. Are you sure you understand your own posts?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I just checked the entire thread and aside your post #116, the phrase "If only God exists..." does not appear anywhere. Are you sure you understand your own posts?
Please check again. You should find what I'm referring to in Post 87, but then I'm not going to hold my breath.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Confession of Wickedness
The way of peace they have not known.
Righteousness does not reach them.
They hope for light, but there is darkness; Isaiah 59:7-9
Amen they are sinners as they say they are instead of being the righteousness of God in Christ be in you.
Give glory to the Lord your God Before He causes darkness, And before your feet stumble On the dark mountains,
And while you are looking for light, He turns it into the shadow of death And makes it dense darkness. Jer 13:16
Yes you should follow the ways of Jesus in righteousness without that darkness that your sins carry.
 
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