Is faith a fruit of the Spirit?

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It still is a filthy rag, even with preceding grace.

God forbid he save people who can't even do a righteous act.
Why would Faith after Prevenient Grace, be a Filthy-Rag? Thanks for agreeing that a Graceless faith is a Filthy-Rag though...
 
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Dizerner

Well-known member
Why would Faith after Prevenient Grace, be a Filthy-Rag? Thanks for agreeing though...

We really do want to use grace to find something righteous in ourselves, don't we.

Because—there is NO ONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE.

Preceding grace does not make you no longer a sinner—it does not make you righteous "enough" to get saved.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
We really do want to use grace to find something righteous in ourselves, don't we.

Because—there is NO ONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE.

Preceding grace does not make you no longer a sinner—it does not make you righteous "enough" to get saved.
We do not want to use Grace to find something Righteous in ourselves. I would disagree though that Prevenient Grace is not Efficacious. If you agree it's Efficacious, then it does something for us. Travelah said it pulls back the covers from us, so we can Savingly Believe. I say this pulls away God's Veil; though it's not our Nature, it's affixed to our Nature...
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
We do not want to use Grace to find something Righteous in ourselves. I would disagree though that Prevenient Grace is not Efficacious. If you agree it's Efficacious, then it does something for us. Travelah said it pulls back the covers frim us, so we can Savingly Believe. I say this pulls away God's Veil, though it's not our Nature; it's affixed to our Nature...

By making preceding grace somehow cause our faith to be an inherently righteous act, you do realize you would be positing that an unsaved person could do something righteous. You see, they try to argue against Arminian grace by saying sinful people can't do something righteous—which means that when you exercise faith you'd have to already be born again. How can you be saved by faith if you need to be saved to have faith at all? You can't.

They don't care, the doctrine comes first, and they squeeze Scripture into it no matter what. So now we have to be born again already so we can get born again by faith. Faith cannot be inherently righteous, or it would be producing something good without the Work of the Cross. Because the result is good, does not make the action good. Trusting someone else to be your righteousness is not, in and of itself, a righteousness already. All faith is necessarily an imperfect action that is looking to the perfection of someone else.
 
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TheTruth

Active member
We do not want to use Grace to find something Righteous in ourselves. I would disagree though that Prevenient Grace is not Efficacious. If you agree it's Efficacious, then it does something for us. Travelah said it pulls back the covers from us, so we can Savingly Believe. I say this pulls away God's Veil; though it's not our Nature, it's affixed to our Nature...

Or God does something for us or on our behalf that we can't do for ourselves.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
By making preceding grace somehow cause our faith to be an inherently righteous act, you do realize you would be positing that an unsaved person could do something righteous. You see, they try to argue against Arminian grace by saying sinful people can't do something righteous—which means that when you exercise faith you'd have to already be born again. How can you be saved by faith if you need to be saved to have faith at all? You can't.

They don't care, the doctrine comes first, and they squeeze Scripture into it no matter what. So now we have to be born again already so we can get born again by faith. Faith cannot be inherently righteous, or it would be producing something good without the Work of the Cross. Because the result is good, does not make the action good. Trusting someone else to be your righteousness is not, in and of itself, a righteousness already. All faith is necessary an imperfect action that is looking to the perfection of someone else.
I'm trying to understand, but I'm having a problem due to a Fundamental of the Faith; one I think you already agreed with. Our Faith without Grace, or according to you even with Grace; is a Filthy-Rag. What causes Filthy-Rag faith to be acceptable to God; when it is blemished?

If you want to focus on something else, that's fine; but I don't think I could move on, with this always in the back of my Mind...
 

Howie

Well-known member
There are different types or functions of faith.

1 Cor 12:4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, a and to still another the interpretation of tongues. b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

These are all post regeneration. No unbeliever possesses any of these gifts. Here faith is a special strength of faith that is used for the "common good" of the body of Christ, the Church. This is not saving faith, but encouraging and sustaining faith that is used to build and strengthen the Church.

The fruits of the spirit, however, are more internal in the life of the believer. These are character traits of the growing believers, what their inner spirituality looks like.
Galatians 5: 22-23

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Note that the suffix "ness" is used on a series of words in 22-23, indicating the state of being actively Kind, Good, Faithful, and Gentle. We can only do these things through the Spirit. Thus, they, these types of behavior and lifestyle expressions, are produced by, and are the Fruits of the Spirit in a true believer.

This is not saving faith, but living faith. Faithfulness that is evidence of the reality of the Spirit within the believer. Maintaining an objective and dynamic faith in various types of circumstances and with consistency over time.

Peter, in 2 Pet 1:5-8, makes a similar list, but expresses it more dynamically rather than objectively. We are told to "add to" our objective faith in Christ "goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love...", and this, "in increasing measure". This faith is not saving either, but the objective faith established when we first believed that needs supplemented by these various things such as excellence, knowledge, and perseverance, among other characteristics.

Doug
smh
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
This is the heart of the problem.

You realize your objection is based in a belief that you have to offer something righteous to God to be worthy of getting saved?

God accepts filthy-rag faith because our righteousness does not come from our own purity.

It's Good News!!
Thanks for Clarifying, I understand better. I was thinking earlier when you last Posted, the OT Saints had to Offer a Lamb without Blemish; and they could do it. I don't think God would have accepted a blemished Lamb when someone kept the best of their flock to themselves. So in this sense, I still need to get over the hump. I need more in order to believe God would ever accept our Filthy-Rag faith. Why do you believe God accepts Filthy-Rag faith when he doesn't accept Filthy-Rag goodness? Would you say that God accepts the best of our Filthy-Rag faith?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
How does this differ from traditional Calvinism ?

Thank you !
The primary difference between my view and the traditional Calvinistic argument is when the power of sin, which is the cause of our depravity, is broken so as to allow our understanding to grasp the truth of the gospel, and thereby understand the reality of our standing before God.

Non-Cals generally hold that prevenient grace mitigates the power of sin so that we won't be as bad as we could/would be if God had completely abandoned us and left us to our own devices. This includes being able to hear the voice of the Spirit as he reveals the truth of our sin.

Cals say that regeneration is the event that precedes us understanding the truth of the gospel and being able to respond positively. Arminians hold that prevenient grace is irresistible, but that God does not act irresistibly in salvation.


Doug
 

sundance

Well-known member
The primary difference between my view and the traditional Calvinistic argument is when the power of sin, which is the cause of our depravity, is broken so as to allow our understanding to grasp the truth of the gospel, and thereby understand the reality of our standing before God.

Non-Cals generally hold that prevenient grace mitigates the power of sin so that we won't be as bad as we could/would be if God had completely abandoned us and left us to our own devices. This includes being able to hear the voice of the Spirit as he reveals the truth of our sin.

Cals say that regeneration is the event that precedes us understanding the truth of the gospel and being able to respond positively. Arminians hold that prevenient grace is irresistible, but that God does not act irresistibly in salvation.


Doug

I see God as trying to "win" the will of men. The idea that God must irresistibly force man to act is contrary to any concept I have of a supreme being fully satisfied in Himself.
 

TheTruth

Active member
This is the heart of the problem.

You realize your objection is based in a belief that you have to offer something righteous to God to be worthy of getting saved?

God accepts filthy-rag faith because our righteousness does not come from our own purity.

It's Good News!!

That's why God must have did something for us that makes us believe.
 
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fltom

Well-known member
That's why God must have did something for us that makes us believe.
Send the gospel

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
I say every Christian will agree with your Verse, and say that yes; faith in this Context is a Fruit of God. But I think some will say Saving Faith isn't a Fruit of the Spirit; because this Faith precedes our being placed in the True Vine...

I'd counter that by saying 'Look at the other Fruits listed in the Verse'. "Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, and Goodness". If Saving Faith is not a Spiritual Gift, then before our Belief in the Truth; none of these are Spiritual Gifts. Our love before we Believe is not a Saving Love. Our goodness before our Belief in the Truth is not a Saving Goodness. It is actually a 'Filthy-Rag' goodness; right? Our faith before Belief in the Truth is likewise Filthy-Rag faith...

So perhaps they are right; our faith before our Belief in the Truth is NOT a Spiritual Gift...

@TibiasDad @Carbon

Interesting way to put it.

I tend to see the text as a resultant of "something".
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Interesting way to put it.

I tend to see the text as a resultant of "something".
My "Filthy-Rag" faith approach is very strong. I'm an ABC 123 Elementary mini theologian who can say the same thing as Great Theologians; but in an interesting way...
 
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