Is Free will doing what you want

TomFL

Well-known member

What is compatibilist free will?​

Within Christian theology, compatibilist free will is the philosophical position which states that a person's free will is compatible with God's predestination and that an unbeliever is not capable, by an act of his or her free will, to choose to receive Christ as Savior. This is because the unbeliever is affected by sin in all that he is, is full of wickedness (Jer. 17:9), is enslaved to sin (Rom. 6:14-20), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), and can do no good (Rom. 3:10-12). Unbelievers have free will to choose, but their sinful free will, will always choose sin. Therefore, they will freely choose to do what is contrary to God.
Compatibilism states that the biblical revelation restricts a non-saved person from being able to freely choose to receive Christ of his own free will, because his free will is enslaved to sin (Romans 6:14-20) and is incapable of understanding and receiving spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). CARM - Matt Slick

The question however is free will is doing what you want when your desires (wants) are controlled by God

If that is not free will where is the compatibilism between free will and determination

There does not seem to be any

and if that is so Compatibilism is just as deterministic as hard determinism

A view that is affirmed by a number of Calvists

Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)… Reformation theology online website

Compatibilism. It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism | Monergism
 

civic

Active member
I think we are looking at this from the wrong POV. Lets just see how God paints man in his sinful state post fall.

Jeremiah 13:23- Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

above we see man can do nothing to change his condition no more than a man can change the color of his skin or the leopard his spots. The same with sin and scripture makes it clear in numerous places we were dead in our sins when Christ made us alive.

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Romans 6:16- Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

2 Corinthians 1:9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead-

Only God can raise the dead to life, and we were dead in our sins when He made us alive.

John 3:3- No one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Only the new birth which comes from God, not ourselves is how we can see His Kingdom.

John 1:13- children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

John 5:21- For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

Coming to Christ can only happen when He draws us and enables us to come, its impossible to come by our free will since we are slaves of sin, in bondage to sin, and sin is our master.

So IMHO free will does not exist until after we are born again then we have the capability to choose to sin or choose to obey God.

I could be Arminian if it were not for passages like these and there are many more such passages that paint the same picture that I have left out. And honestly like I have said 100's of times on this forum over the years I have no desire to change anyone's mind because I do not thing its a salvific issue since Salvation is of the Lord in which I believe we all are in agreement there.

The free will debate will never be resolved on this side of heaven and most of us have our line drawn in the sand with the issue.

hope this helps !!!
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
...

The free will debate will never be resolved on this side of heaven and most of us have our line drawn in the sand with the issue.

hope this helps !!!
One can willingly call out to God for mercy as did the prodigal son and the publican; or, one can lay passively waiting for God to meticulously decree a new heart. One is scriptural, one is theological.
 

civic

Active member
One can willingly call out to God for mercy as did the prodigal son and the publican; or, one can lay passively waiting for God to meticulously decree a new heart. One is scriptural, one is theological.
The prodigal was already His son so of course he could cry out just like you or I can do now. I said free will exists after conversion when we become the children of God.

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I think we are looking at this from the wrong POV. Lets just see how God paints man in his sinful state post fall.

Jeremiah 13:23- Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

above we see man can do nothing to change his condition no more than a man can change the color of his skin or the leopard his spots. The same with sin and scripture makes it clear in numerous places we were dead in our sins when Christ made us alive.

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Romans 6:16- Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

2 Corinthians 1:9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead-

Only God can raise the dead to life, and we were dead in our sins when He made us alive.

John 3:3- No one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Only the new birth which comes from God, not ourselves is how we can see His Kingdom.

John 1:13- children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

John 5:21- For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

Coming to Christ can only happen when He draws us and enables us to come, its impossible to come by our free will since we are slaves of sin, in bondage to sin, and sin is our master.

So IMHO free will does not exist until after we are born again then we have the capability to choose to sin or choose to obey God.

I could be Arminian if it were not for passages like these and there are many more such passages that paint the same picture that I have left out. And honestly like I have said 100's of times on this forum over the years I have no desire to change anyone's mind because I do not thing its a salvific issue since Salvation is of the Lord in which I believe we all are in agreement there.

The free will debate will never be resolved on this side of heaven and most of us have our line drawn in the sand with the issue.

hope this helps !!!
Hi Civic

I am a little puzzled as to how that answers the question which basically is

Is Free will doing what you want when your desires have been casually determined by divine meticulous determination

So I will just offer some general comments to your verses

Jeremiah 13:23- Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

So man is sinful and those accomtomed to evil can do no good. Does that mean they cannot confess their sinfulness or respond to God when he offer they a way to change their spotsb

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Already addressed and the bible lists multiple people who were declared righteous

As noted that is a quote from Psa 14

Psa. 14:1–5 —KJV
Ҧ The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
¶ Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.”

The generation of the righteous ?

How is that ?

and all these declared righteous, just etc

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

righteous not through the law but by faith

How did they become righteous by faith ?

Were any regenerated before the advent of the Spirit ?


Romans 6:16- Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

Yes man can be enslaved by sin but again does that mean he cannot confess his sin or respond to God as he offers freedom from sins bondage ?

2 Corinthians 1:9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead-

not sure what your point is here

2 Cor. 1:8–9 —KJV
“For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:”

Only God can raise the dead to life, and we were dead in our sins when He made us alive.

Agreed only God can give life but the issue is what is the condition upon which he gives life

Over and over it is stated to be faith

John 3:3- No one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Agreed

But how is one born of God

Is it not an act of God performed upon faith

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

John 1:13- children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

Yes regeneration is from God but again when is it given

Time after time the bible puts faith before life which is regeneration

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”



John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Yes when Jesus came down to do the father's will and draw a band of followers who would carry the gospel into the world

afterwards

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

Coming to Christ can only happen when He draws us and enables us to come, its impossible to come by our free will since we are slaves of sin, in bondage to sin, and sin is our master.

And the question was how did he draw

John 6:45 —KJV
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
 

civic

Active member
Tom I believe the OT saints/prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them as Peter tells us below. Do you ?

We need to establish some common ground.

1 Peter 1:11
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
The prodigal was already His son so of course he could cry out just like you or I can do now. I said free will exists after conversion when we become the children of God.

hope this helps !!!
So was the other son who willingly rebelled; what about the prodigal?
 
I think we are looking at this from the wrong POV. Lets just see how God paints man in his sinful state post fall.

Jeremiah 13:23- Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

above we see man can do nothing to change his condition no more than a man can change the color of his skin or the leopard his spots. The same with sin and scripture makes it clear in numerous places we were dead in our sins when Christ made us alive.

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Romans 6:16- Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

2 Corinthians 1:9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead-

Only God can raise the dead to life, and we were dead in our sins when He made us alive.

John 3:3- No one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Only the new birth which comes from God, not ourselves is how we can see His Kingdom.

John 1:13- children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

John 5:21- For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

Coming to Christ can only happen when He draws us and enables us to come, its impossible to come by our free will since we are slaves of sin, in bondage to sin, and sin is our master.

So IMHO free will does not exist until after we are born again then we have the capability to choose to sin or choose to obey God.

I could be Arminian if it were not for passages like these and there are many more such passages that paint the same picture that I have left out. And honestly like I have said 100's of times on this forum over the years I have no desire to change anyone's mind because I do not thing its a salvific issue since Salvation is of the Lord in which I believe we all are in agreement there.

The free will debate will never be resolved on this side of heaven and most of us have our line drawn in the sand with the issue.

hope this helps !!!
We are either servants of sin through the flesh or the servants of righteousness through the Spirit and are influenced by one of the two. There is no free will in either case period! God bless you. :)
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom I believe the OT saints/prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them as Peter tells us below. Do you ?

We need to establish some common ground.

1 Peter 1:11
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
That I believe refers to prophets

1 Pet. 1:10–11 —KJV
Ҧ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

Not about regeneration

which is a promise of the future in association the indwelling of the Spirit

Ezek. 36:26–27 —KJV
“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
 
That I believe refers to prophets

1 Pet. 1:10–11 —KJV
Ҧ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

Not about regeneration

which is a promise of the future in association the indwelling of the Spirit

Ezek. 36:26–27 —KJV
“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
Do you believe that the spiritual outworking of Jesus atonement apples to those in the past before God sent the Son into the world in the flesh?

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
One can willingly call out to God for mercy as did the prodigal son and the publican; or, one can lay passively waiting for God to meticulously decree a new heart. One is scriptural, one is theological.
How can a dead person call out to God ? Thats like saying lazarus before Christ raised him by miracle, could have called out on the name of Christ to save him from being dead. Thats ridiculous
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
One can willingly call out to God for mercy as did the prodigal son and the publican;

The prodigal was able to call out because he was ALREADY a Son.
Not all people are sons.

or, one can lay passively waiting for God to meticulously decree a new heart. One is scriptural, one is theological.

Let's see what "Scripture" actually says:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The default is "no man can come to me" ("coming" refers to "believing" here, cf. v.45).
The only way one can come is "the Father ... draw him".

So only those whom the FATHER DRAWS, will believe and get a new heart.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Only those who are ordained, will believe.
Your false teaching would turn that upside-down, "as many as believed were ordained to eternal life".

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Your false teachings turn THIS verse upside-down as well. You would have it read, "you are not my sheep, BECAUSE you believe not." But that is NOT what it says.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
theo

The prodigal was able to call out because he was ALREADY a Son.
Not all people are sons.

Thats True, and I believe at that time he began his return, he had been given repentance[new birth], which shows how the power of Christ returns His People. Lk 15:17-18

And when he came to himself[New birth], he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Lk 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The son is really passive in being made alive again from death and being found from being lost !

This is a work that Christ does for all the children God gave Him !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
theo



Thats True, and I believe at that time he began his return, he had been given repentance[new birth], which shows how the power of Christ returns His People. Lk 15:17-18

And when he came to himself[New birth], he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Lk 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The son is really passive in being made alive again from death and being found from being lost !

This is a work that Christ does for all the children God gave Him !
That is quite a stretch coming to himself is the new birth

He was sovereignly regenerated ??????????????????
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
How can a dead person call out to God ? Thats like saying lazarus before Christ raised him by miracle, could have called out on the name of Christ to save him from being dead. Thats ridiculous
The context of Lazarus was physical resurrection; a dead person is in the grave. Calling out to God for mercy is done by a living person.
 
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