Is freewill real or something we invented is there biblical truth that God gave us freewill ?

[Arikel88]

another individual said in that conversation that grew. He's name is Ryan

Certainly it is true that we live in flawed sinful world. Satan tells Jesus in Luke 4:6 "the world is mine and I give it to whomever I wish". So then our sinful nature and the flawed world are certainly a "problem". But God has influence both on the heart of man and in the world holding back the tide of evil. So despotism is of the evil one but a "checks and balances" system where government is designed under the assumption that "people even in government , are prone to having bad ideas and need checks and balances" - is better then just ruling via a handful of despots. Its like placing some band aids and patches on a failing system rather than just letting it all fall apart.

 

[Arikel88]

Direct drive replied

I think of us as "in God's image" in the same way a manager of a Wal-Mart is the company's "image". i.e. as far as the employees of the store and the customers are concerned, the manager IS Wal Mart.

That is, God has given us dominion over the earth. As far as the earth is concerned, we ARE God. That's why, IMO, it is completely proper to "play god" regarding how you treat everything around you and the lives of animals. But we certainly don't have anything close to His knowledge and understanding of this universe he created. That's why we can't explain quantum entanglement or this.

BTW, the "store manager" is Jesus. And I don't think this is the only Wal Mart...

 

[Arikel88]

Bernard another one i did not invite to conversation he was invited by another guy he said :O

No it’s not that I call it unjust it’s that God’s judgement without free will would contradict the very definition of the word just. If man is incapable of meeting God’s expectations then His judgement is not impartial or fair. God would be showing partiality towards some but not towards others which would by definition make His judgement unjust. It’s not a matter of opinion of what is just and what isn’t, it’s a matter of is God showing partiality towards some and not towards others? If there is no free will then God is showing partiality, that would not be an opinion but a fact. Therefore if God is showing partiality then His judgement defies the definition of the word just.

 

[Arikel88]

Connor said

Mmhmm, but none of that helps so far as painting the subject of freewill as some kind of super elite level knowledge problem that only God in heaven can know of or speak authoritatively on. Freedom (as I’ve shared) isn’t simply believed but rather experienced.

The reason people would find your fictional solipsist funny is because he’s just arguing with himself if his beliefs are true (he’s challenging himself to debunk himself,) but his beliefs are disproven by having naturally experienced other beings besides himself. About solipsism people chide “you’d have to have a PHD to believe something like that,” it’s just so silly and not worth considering.

The same goes for playing hide and seek with freewill as if we’re not having the freewill experience daily. Freewill isn’t a knowledge problem nor would it be something hidden in the otherness of God, God communicates to us in ways we can understand, not in ways we can’t. Jesus is part of that communication, becoming ant man was good enough for Him.

I don’t think anyone will find verses explicitly arguing for a definition of freedom, freedom limited by nature or determinism because that’s not what Israel or the church was debating back in those days.

The freewill debate occurred after Christ’s resurrection between the church fathers and the Gnostics, it’s the church fathers who were on the side of freedom of the will in those early days when the debate was relevant.

 

[Arikel88]

My point is that this individuals and I discuss something important and one said something very important and that is what i wanna talk about at the end very soon finish.

 

[Arikel88]

The fact that people still think the freewill debate is relevant when it was in fact settled by the early church in favour of proper freedom to choose otherwise, that shows a telling victory for Gnostics, indoctrinators and just a lack of common sense overall.

If we want to know if freedom of choice is truly possible, just stop, think, decide whether or not you’d like to continue reading this message, then choose. It’s not a divine mystery, it’s real life.

(because I carelessly didn’t tag or quote you on ) direct driver Qoute

 

[Arikel88]

directd river

I think of "free will" as was demonstrated by the bad guy in "The vanishing" (the european version). He had a permanently disfigured couple of fingers because, as a child, he stood on an upper floor balcony and noticed he could not bring himself to jump off, for the obvious reason. So, to PROVE to himself that he truly had free will, he jumped.

That is, we may have "free will", but sometimes it is very hard to exercise if we fear the outcome. The "risk averse" have less free will than those that are willing to take chances.

But at the end of the day, yes, we have free will within the constraints of the meat bodies we occupy.

 

[Arikel88]

mitchel said : My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God.

Which Bernard replied:

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

 

[Arikel88]

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Connor said

Which is a well known false rendering. God doesn’t create “evil,” the translators simply bungled that word and every modern committee knows it. The correct translation is calamity, notice it’s supposed to be in contrast to peace, the opposite of peace isn’t evil. God brings calamity upon wicked cities for example.

 

[Arikel88]

connor replied

I agree.
However, the verse still says that GOD DOES IT and it does not lay the blame for all of the complexities of life at the feet of MAN'S FREE WILL (which was the point that both quoted verses were refuting).

Technically, it is NOT a "false rendering". Rather, the meaning of "evil" has changed since the 1600's. One might have once spoken of an "evil odor" or "evil fortune" having nothing to do with satanic forces, but simply meaning corrupt, spoiled or bad. It was later replaced by "ill" (having nothing to do with sickness, but just meaning "bad").

 

[Arikel88]

another person was invited his name was john he said

connor said: I agree.
However, the verse still says that GOD DOES IT and it does not lay the blame for all of the complexities of life at the feet of MAN'S FREE WILL (which was the point that both quoted verses were refuting)

When God was preparing to judge Nineveh, he sent an unwilling Jonah to preach judgement there. The judgement was based upon Nineveh's wickedness - not God's will for the city. Nineveh was spared because through their free will the whole city repented of their wickedness.

If God's Will was being done perfectly on Earth, we would be experiencing Heaven on Earth. The vanilla statement "Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that was not God's Will and "be" is the present tense. There is no sin or sickness in Heaven.

 

[Arikel88]

connor said:

Then there’s no need to continue to use an inaccurate, misleading translation that has the poor form of stating God is the cause of something He explicitly distances Himself from (1 thessalonians 4:3.)

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.
1 John 2:16

For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
That’s the stated will of God, not the secret will that exists in the mind of western theologians.

Just like in the case of 1 Corinthians 10:12-14 God doesn’t want Christians to sin, so He commands against it and provides a way of escape every single time we are tempted to sin.

For posters who believe God decreed sins like fornication or “created evil” as a part of his inscrutable secret council, decreeing them in secret while telling humanity to their facenot to sin, you’re deep in the grips of a man made philosophy.

 

[Arikel88]

Jake another individual join the conversation to my dismay :O

Bernarnd said: ↑

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Bernard said: ↑

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

The word evil is not the correct translation see these examples:
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

 

[Arikel88]

Jake said: I did not agree and quoted


Jake said: ↑

The word evil is not the correct translation see these examples:
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

... More straining at gnats. [sigh]

YOU SAID:
One more time from the top:

Jake said: ↑

My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God.

• emphasis on "caused by man" and "not caused by God"

TO WHICH I REPLIED:

Bernard said: ↑

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

• Genesis 50 claims that the evil actions of the brothers of Joseph, were MEANT FOR GOOD (as in actions intended as part of God's plan) BY GOD! Note the emphasis that contrary to your opinion, it was GOD and not MAN that was driving events.
• Isaiah 45, setting aside the gnat of the correct translation of a single word, is also about the fact that "I the LORD do all these things" which means that "all things" are not the result of Man's action with God looking on helplessly wishing that people would just obey Him.

ANOTHER KJV HATER JUMPED ALL OVER THAT TRANSLATION AS WELL, AND I EXPLAINED THE RENDERING OF THE WORD AS "EVIL" WAS NOT AN ERROR:

Bernard said: ↑

Technically, it is NOT a "false rendering". Rather, the meaning of "evil" has changed since the 1600's. One might have once spoken of an "evil odor" or "evil fortune" having nothing to do with satanic forces, but simply meaning corrupt, spoiled or bad. It was later replaced by "ill" (having nothing to do with sickness, but just meaning "bad").

In conclusion, you are correct that there are more accurate renderings of the verse in Modern English. However a more accurate rendering only makes my case even stronger. The scripture deliberately presents pairs of opposites and concludes with a bold exclamation that God is in control of all of them. The use of opposites is a literary device to "bookend" a category and imply "and everything in between". Thus the whole point of the verse is God is in control of ALL THINGS!

There can be no clearer refutation of "My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God" than that.

 

[Arikel88]

connor said

Jake said: ↑

ANOTHER KJV HATER

Oh pshaw.

Nobody is hating on the KJV, pointing out an error in translating that implicates God in the creation of evil isn’t “hating” or being a “hater,” it’s holding people and translations accountable. Pressing the hate button in all caps is so gay rights.

It’s better to strain at a gnat than swallow an error, my friend. Your “gnat” actually has huge implications on the nature of God and how He interacts with creation, recasting your mishandling of scripture as a gnat is all about protecting the fragile ego.

Jake said: ↑

God is in control of ALL THINGS!

That’s just another assertion of timid Calvinism. You can see throughout the topic uses of scripture that argue successfully for God giving Christians alternatives to sin which we choose not to indulge in, in addition to several things coming not from God but rather from the world (e.g. lust of the eyes, the pride of life.)

God commands Christians not in indulge in idolatry and fornication, providing an escape route upon every single occasion where we fail and give into the temptation, in short, Gods commands are clear and His means of escape more than empty promises.

 

[Arikel88]

Jake said later


Connor said: ↑

Oh pshaw.

Nobody is hating on the KJV, pointing out an error in translating that implicates God in the creation of evil isn’t “hating” or being a “hater,” it’s holding people and translations accountable.

It is still not an error
Get a better dictionary if you are going to read translations from the 1600's.
That is YOUR problem and not a flaw with 1600's English.


Connor said: ↑

That’s just another assertion of timid Calvinism.

Reject Isaiah 50 if it pleases you to do so. It says what it says and THAT has nothing to do with "Calvinism".

So you believe that God was not in control when Joseph's brother's sold him into slavery. You have a right to hold a wrong opinion.

God bless you and keep you ... far away from me.

 

[Arikel88]

Connor replied


Jake said: ↑

It is still not an error (see post #41).

mmhmm, I ignored the details of post 41 because it doesn’t add anything to the conversation. It’s not a point worth refuting since you conceded right from the jump by writing “I agree.”

Evil, bad and wicked etc are words with a history and can be used in a variety of ways, which goes to show nothing of how the word’s being used in your quotation from Isaiah. While everyone in the topic (including you!) agreed that the word in past, present and future usage connotes moral evil and would be better replaced by words like disaster, catastrophe or calamity. See you agree but can’t let go of the point.


Jake said: ↑

Reject Isaiah 50 if it pleases you to do so.

Jake said: ↑

So you believe that God was not in control when Joseph's brother's sold him into slavery.

I haven’t rejected any scripture or shared any opinions on the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers. You’re jumping to conclusions like how you jump to poorly translated verses.


Jake said: ↑

God bless you and keep you ... far away from me.

We can only hope that the Lord will insulate and protect you from being triggered further. All those haters out there causing you upset.

Connor said: ↑

You can see throughout the topic uses of scripture that argue successfully for God giving Christians alternatives to sin which we choose not to indulge in, in addition to several things coming not from God but rather from the world (e.g. lust of the eyes, the pride of life.)

God commands Christians not in indulge in idolatry and fornication, providing an escape route upon every single occasion where we fail and give into the temptation, in short, Gods commands are clear and His means of escape more than empty promises.

Connor said: ↑

Then there’s no need to continue to use an inaccurate, misleading translation that has the poor form of stating God is the cause of something He explicitly distances Himself from (1 thessalonians 4:3.)

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.
1 John 2:16

For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
That’s the stated will of God, not the secret will that exists in the mind of western theologians.

Just like in the case of 1 Corinthians 10:12-14 God doesn’t want Christians to sin, so He commands against it and provides a way of escape every single time we are tempted to sin.

For posters who believe God decreed sins like fornication or “created evil” as a part of his inscrutable secret council, decreeing them in secret while telling humanity to their face not to sin, you’re deep in the grips of a man made philosophy.

Scripture you’ve ignored ^^^

 

[Arikel88]

All this was for A reason and when I talked about freewill this conversation grew and the purpose is not yet going to continue later. this is another message they sent and another person got in the conversation his name is Chad gave me a sincere idea about freewill.

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[Arikel88]

This is the point only God who is creator of good and evil of light and darkness is who moves it all, we were never meant to understand. What would of happen if he would of not put the tree of good and evil and would of never enter this world. We would of being like children still with our envelope of innocence and be in front ogf God protected by him ?


Yes, our purpose was not good or evil and by human fault we felled. If the tree was not their we would of fallen one will ask ? Nope, everything has plan and God never wanted man in this position what was the purpose of the tree afterwards ? if he would never eaten of it would of other animals eat of it and not man ? or later remove as time passed ? We will never know ? What was really the purpose just as A test of not to be eatena nd alter remove by God ?





But still we know God said that man was like him and the angels that knoweth good and evil ! And still we realize the devil had freewill before us and he fell ! But we know that in our error of Adam we can decide not like the devil but do good in the mistake and rely on God's effort and not our owns and put things in God's hands. Our destiny can change and move but some of you question we cannot escape him or his destiny he saved for us. The question do you want the destiny he did not prepare and leave us in possibility of A million to one what will happen and man just be thrown in space and let him decide ? What will be the outcome if you can plan everyhing since your born from A baby and turn into an adult that instance and God gave you all the power of the future and destiny you wanted ? you will know what you know and you will make A decision better ?




No, this why it is better that inside this world we live we can live in many possibilities and be saved by grace and baptized from sin into salvation and put love into salvation ! We would not of found our destiny if we could decide our destiny in that moment from baby to adult in space. He put us in Eden to be protected and choose not to eat the tree of good and evil and let use have choice ! If we didn't eat we will be perfect and without sin ! But we felled and he gave As econd chance in Jesus and glad that even those scientist believe if they ahd possiblity to ebf ree into choosing thier future our possiblities from predestination would make thier sum of equations and free from God soveriegn and have freewill ?





You have freewill protected and relying in God's effort and his soveriegn that you are not in space making decision but here in the world where in his care of law of moses and law of genesis. They would not of eating the fruti they will live in the probabilities in those rules and soveriegn of G-d's law and love. Be under his guidance and be saved. Knowing we can change those probablities and change our destiny from being A shoe salesman and into lawyer or governor of A state and reach our max and be what we want !


Moses chaneg those probabilities and also Huldah in her prophecy, G-d could reverse those action make us forget it and then done but he let those error stay and destiny was changed seeing he does not make it all effect in a sense of our errors do not ruin our future and in error the Eden will return and heaven on earth and we will be saved despite our errors in Jesus. God could of just erase us and no one will know of our exsitence and done but he lets us know and see those error have existed and predestiantion can change and destiny and sum of those variables and one million in one probablities can change and anything is possible. Let us do good and make knowing of good and evil in God's favor and find our purpose in life and pray to him.


See he made probablities and the sense some people say that one can make decision and really can't change thier future or predestiantion just fear and laziness that future can change and just like Moses and Huldah made mistake know we can make success into our favor and do good and chaneg our future with him and play ahrd abll i life and into all the promblems life does go thru and breakthru it all and not passive christian that rolls over and breaks the mold life give and make good in life and saves his family.


Kicks and screams and changes his future his predestiantion and not this that with God you can't change your future or predestiantion I see you can't change your future idea and you do not understand it still ! This why you do not understand how freewill works in God's favor and his plan of God. But still stuck with the laws of modern world and liberalism USA faces ! You have freedom to choose and better under God's wing and not in space where psycologist and scientist say they don't get to choose and if they choose they would make more errors and wouldn't recognize them !

 

[Arikel88]

Just to make A recap everyone from the first to remembering the last posts that were done but we have to see what hebrew say when using those words of "free" and choice and know the whole area is also tied to the slaves system Judean mosaic law applies people. Did you know their is A law that saw if A slave from another country comes to Israel he is free under the law of moses and musn't be return to his country to be slave ? He can be free forever

Understand our freedom did exist ! And existed in Heaven when Lucifer rebbeled, truly freewill exist in the spectrum of decision but the concept of the past, present, and future makes us think freewill doesn't exist because everything God's see's and foresaws decided everything for us. Nope people just like their are sciences explaining our existence their is other realms of existence of aliens, spirits and time that our thinking does not know and exist God created it becuase he is above it all but paths that exist and ways that exist in those ways explain that freedom exist probablility exist and Lucifer is one that's he was perfect in every sense we do knot know and yet he reblled and proves freewill myth is not myth and Ray I copy something from him. Still were just the tip of the iceberg in freewill and consciousness and existing explaining that what we percieve in our brains and eyes is not how freewil is exist by God and he gives us choice to do good and evil people don't understand it.


Because they want to control the base of it and with words grab their destiny and say like scientist they cannot really choose because their future was chosen for them and everything is planned ? Not true Moses and Hulda and Elijah changed the future of the world with thier decision can we who are in this choosing of good and evil also change the destiny of this world and do good and not the same mistakes as them ? Yes, we can can Jesus do it ? He did change our destiny all together.



No, people you just begginign to enter the tip of freewill as we speak we have the verses and in greek mean different things and in hebrew mean different things. But how in the universe rules are different and no we are bound becuase their Is more to God he is not showing we know him as the God of before, today and tomorrow are thier more time measurments in the universe ? Yes, Do angels, aliens, and other beings that exist have different counting than we do ? yes, understand God is beyond destiny and he gives us that to be measure by time like we know it now but there is more ways to count time from angel perspective, alien perspective, and above all from God's perpsective for he is has not limits and he has counting system different from us.


Freewill is it based from God's letting people to choose to love him or not ? He let us choose our destiny can change from that ? Dont' go too far people he onlys wants us to choose either to be freed by him from sin thru Jesus and be baptized simple as that and not to choose to do evil simple people. Does freedom exist outside of our science and counting time and counting destiny and God can make it happen ? Yes he can he can do it all for he is God and only God judges God ! We cannot go beyond that but he can craete it people Don't rely on your own efforts in yoru decison but pray and rely on his and he will unchange your destiny to youd dream of saving your family to be rich man in god's way and be the thing you want he put in your heart to free in freewill in his love he gaves us life to choose and enjoy this magnifecent thing called life and live it with all your might and feelings.


Choose God above it all and put him first he will change your ways and find your dream come reality and really be all the things you can be !