Is freewill real or something we invented is there biblical truth that God gave us freewill ?

I appreciate your consideration.

Snipped for character count.
Like everything else in the Bible, there is a context:

Romans 11:1-2
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?


Bounce your verses against the context, and you will see the difference.


The elect are exactly what Paul says they are in Ephesians. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1:1-13&version=NASB1995


Corporate Election by Dan Wallace
A good friend who is also a pastor wrote to me recently about the nature of election. He wondered if it were possible for Christians to be chosen in Christ—that is, for Christians not to be elected individually, but only as a corporate entity. The idea was that Christ is the chosen one and if a person is “in Christ,” then he’s chosen too. This is known as corporate election.
Here are some thoughts on the issue of corporate election.

Dear Pastor _______,
Preliminarily, I should address an antecedent issue. Although I will express my opinion, you of course have to come to your own conclusions. Having a good conscience about the text doesn’t require agreement with others; it requires being faithful to pursue truth at all costs to the best of your abilities. To be sure, you want to seek the counsel and input of various experts. But when the day is done, you have to stand before God and tell him how you see your views as in harmony with Holy Writ. In other words, I never want you to feel any kind of intimidation or pressure from me or anyone else about your handling of the text. I do of course want you to feel a great duty (as you always have) to the Lord in the handling of his word. At bottom, all of us have to give an account of ourselves to the Lord, and any human loyalties will have no standing before him.
Now, on to the issue!
First, allow me to clarify the issue: By corporate election I suppose you mean that only those who will be in Christ are chosen and that God does not specifically choose individuals but only chooses the sphere (“in Christ”) in which the elective purposes of God can take place. Thus, if one embraces Christ he is chosen.
If that is what you mean by corporate election, then I would reject it. Here are the reasons why:
First, the authors you cited seemed to make a conceptual-lexical equation (i.e., if the word “elect” was used, only groups were in view; ergo, election is only corporate). That view has been regarded by linguists and biblical scholars as linguistically naïve. James Barr in his Semantics of Biblical Language (Oxford, 1961) makes a lengthy and devastating critique of Kittel’s ten-volume Theological Dictionary of the New Testament for its numerous linguistic fallacies. Among them is this conceptual-lexical equation. Allow me to unpack this a bit more: conceptual-lexical equation means that one does not find the concept unless he sees the words. That seems to be an underlying assumption in the authors you cited. However, where else do we argue this? Would we not say that the concept of fellowship occurs everwhere in the New Testament? Yet the word κοινωνία is found only twenty times. Or consider the deity of Christ: If we could only speak of Christ’s deity in passages where he is explicitly called “God,” then we are shut up to no more than about half a dozen texts. Yet the New Testament wreaks of the deity of Christ—via his actions, attributes that are ascribed to him, Old Testament quotations made of him, implicit and explicit statements made about him. Hence, our first question needs to be: Do we see the concept of election as a corporate notion or an individual one?

Second, I think that there may be a false antithesis between corporate and individual election. Proof that God elects corporately is not proof that he does not elect individually (any more than proof that all are called sinners in Rom 3:23 is a denial that individuals are sinners). I embrace corporate election as well as individual election. As Douglas Moo argues in his commentary on Romans (pp. 551-52),

Evidence for this can be seen in Romans 9 itself: the examples that Paul uses to show the meaning of election are individuals: Pharaoh, Jacob and Esau, etc. Yet, these very examples—these very individuals—also represent corporate groups. If only corporate election were true, Paul could not have written Romans 9 the way he did.

Third, going back to the conceptual-lexical equation for a moment: let’s look at the evidence.

Mark 13:20—“but for the sake of the elect whom he chose he has cut short those days.” If we take only a corporate view of election, this would mean “but for the sake of all humanity he has cut short those days.” That hardly makes any sense in the passage; further, election is doubly emphasized: the elect whom he chose. It would be hard to make any clearer the idea that election is of individuals.

Luke 6:13; John 6:70—Jesus chose twelve of his disciples out of a larger pool. True, he chose more than one; but this also was of particular individuals. Jesus named them individually, indicating that his choice of them was individual. This election was not toward salvation, as we see in John 6:70.1 But this election was entirely initiated by Jesus (“you did not choose me, but I chose you”). Initiation and selection are the prerogatives of the Lord. Corporate election makes absolutely no sense in this context; and further, the elective purposes and methods of God incarnate are the same, whether it is of his apostles for service or of sinners for salvation.

Luke 9:35—“This is my Son, my Chosen One.” Certainly election of Christ is both individual and corporate: Christ as the elect of God (see also at John 1:34 the textual variant that is most likely original, and is the text reading of the NET Bible) is the vehicle through whom God effects his elective purposes today. That is, God chooses those who would be saved, but he also chooses the means of that salvation: it is in Christ (see also Eph 1:4).

John 15:16—“You did not choose me, but I chose you.” Again, we see that election is done by the initiative of God. Further, those who are chosen become what they are chosen for (in this case, apostles). A view of corporate election that allows a large pool of applicants to be “chosen” then permits a self-selection to narrow the candidates seems to ignore both God’s initiative and the efficacy of God’s choice: all those who are chosen become what they are chosen for.

John 15:19—“I chose you out of the world.” The same theme is repeated: election may have many individuals in view, but the initiative and efficacy belong to the Lord.

Acts 1:2—same idea as above.

Acts 1:24—This text reveals a choice of one individual as opposed to another. The apostles vote on which of two candidates they had put in the pool would fill Judas’ spot. But even their choice is dictated by the mandate of heaven: “Show us which one you have chosen.”

Acts 15:7—Peter notes that God had selected him to bring the good news to the Gentiles. Again, though this is not election to salvation, it is election that is initiated by God and effected by God (for, as you recall, Peter was quite resistant to the idea).

Thus, election is seen to be initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen—whether individuals or groups—become what they are chosen for. Corporate election simply ignores this consistent biblical emphasis.

Read the rest at https://credohouse.org/blog/corperate-election-dan-wallace
 
Last edited:
Free Will is true, we have a choice, but God is the ultimate, and only free will provider. God is the the Beginning, and the END ..... Stop, and think, if God is the eternal one, then eternity is already decided, but in the beginning of this creation, we have free will to choose.

is our chose within the terms of Eternity,,, only, in TIME and PLACE
Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." THIS IS IN PLACE, and TIME, but not eternity

well what about ETERNITY? here your choice. 1 Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;"
1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

well who will have all men to be saved. well all men are not SAVED, if so, then there would be no used of A. vengeance. and B. in this vengeance a SECOND DEATH. these are just starters.

so if it was God's will that all men are saved, then there would be no need for A. TIME, or B. Place in Time..... hello.

for Luke 15:7 clearly states, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

well a SINNER is not in Eternity, in respect to the second death, hence one can only be a sinner in A. TIME, and B. Place. ....... or unless as Luke 15:7 states, ... REPENT, and this is DONE in A. TIME, and PLACE.

Conclusion: we have a choice or Free Will, in, God, and NOT outside of God.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Very wise words 101g :O you have made it clear there is road for us and God can change that road and give us something better if we pray, suffer, and go beyond the edge for him Moses did not thought he will survive the desert and found God in the mounatin he was not worthy but God push him over his ablities and he changed his life and became A prophet from a prince then the wilderness and into A man of God. So did elijah who was prophet he was unworthy he change the course of humanity in one instance when he added the family of Jezebel he wanted justice and wanted Jezebel to be punished. God didn't reverse time or he ended Elijah but let Elijah mistake change the course of history.

The course of history if God wanted he could of talked to elijah that instance and told him not to add but Elijah said also her family and God forgave Elijah no destiny can change in various ways and God lets it. We should not try to get Elijah path but we do things like moses and change and have the good things Jesus did so we can emulate him but Elijah is A lessons that destiny was changed. Our freewill has effect but we must use it in wise way and God's way always putting his will.
 
Very wise words 101g :O you have made it clear there is road for us and God can change that road and give us something better if we pray, suffer, and go beyond the edge for him Moses did not thought he will survive the desert and found God in the mounatin he was not worthy but God push him over his ablities and he changed his life and became A prophet from a prince then the wilderness and into A man of God. So did elijah who was prophet he was unworthy he change the course of humanity in one instance when he added the family of Jezebel he wanted justice and wanted Jezebel to be punished. God didn't reverse time or he ended Elijah but let Elijah mistake change the course of history.

The course of history if God wanted he could of talked to elijah that instance and told him not to add but Elijah said also her family and God forgave Elijah no destiny can change in various ways and God lets it. We should not try to get Elijah path but we do things like moses and change and have the good things Jesus did so we can emulate him but Elijah is A lessons that destiny was changed. Our freewill has effect but we must use it in wise way and God's way always putting his will.
Thanks, and the same with YOU.

Be blessed,

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Free Will is true, we have a choice, but God is the ultimate, and only free will provider. God is the the Beginning, and the END ..... Stop, and think, if God is the eternal one, then eternity is already decided, but in the beginning of this creation, we have free will to choose.

is our chose within the terms of Eternity,,, only, in TIME and PLACE
Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." THIS IS IN PLACE, and TIME, but not eternity

well what about ETERNITY? here your choice. 1 Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;"
1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

well who will have all men to be saved. well all men are not SAVED, if so, then there would be no used of A. vengeance. and B. in this vengeance a SECOND DEATH. these are just starters.

so if it was God's will that all men are saved, then there would be no need for A. TIME, or B. Place in Time..... hello.

for Luke 15:7 clearly states, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

well a SINNER is not in Eternity, in respect to the second death, hence one can only be a sinner in A. TIME, and B. Place. ....... or unless as Luke 15:7 states, ... REPENT, and this is DONE in A. TIME, and PLACE.

Conclusion: we have a choice or Free Will, in, God, and NOT outside of God.

PICJAG, 101G.

Take a listen to 1 Timothy 2:4 presented by Salvation by Grace

Here is a different interpretation


If God wanted all men to be saved, they would be. Luke 15:7 proves it. Jesus is in heaven and he speaks about heaven. That means it's eternal.

No free will, no matter how much you want it to be true. Scripture quotes Jesus saying that only those drawn by the Father will be saved.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Jesus said:
John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


Scripture also says this from the Apostle Paul
Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV) The golden chain of redemption.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.




Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.




Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and
as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Salvation is the work of our God.

I believe that salvation happens according to scripture, you have a different in interpretation belief.

God Speed
 
Last edited:
Take a listen to 1 Timothy 2:4 presented by Salvation by Grace

Here is a different interpretation


If God wanted all men to be saved, they would be. Luke 15:7 proves it. Jesus is in heaven and he speaks about heaven. That means it's eternal.

No free will, no matter how much you want it to be true. Scripture quotes Jesus saying that only those drawn by the Father will be saved.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus said:
John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


Scripture also says this from the Apostle Paul
Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV) The golden chain of redemption.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Salvation is the work of our God.

I believe that salvation happens according to scripture, you have a different in interpretation belief.

God Speed
First, Thanks for the reply, but consider this, is GRACE "OFFERED", (a choice) or "IMPUTED?", (a done deal). listen to the definition, IMPUTED, (of a value) assigned to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes; estimated.

now my question, if GRACE is "IMPUTED", why any need of a sinner repenting as in Luke 15:7 if it "IMPUTED?", or as as with John 6:44... and the rest of scriptures listed.

see by "GRACE" being OFFERED, it's a "CHOICE", just as the Person in the video said, God's "DESIRE", did not the bible already say this?

understand the scriptures, Luke 13:25 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:" if GRACE is IMPUTED, why are they KNOCKING? but Listen to this, Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." NOW, if GRACE was IMPUTED, why is he KNOCKING?...... seeking "IF", "IF", "IF", and if is a conditional "CHOICE. see the Point Now.
WHY is all of this? listen,, Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" well lets answer this, "obedience is better than sacrifice", and this is why the Lord Jesus said, Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him", hear his voice? yes, his voice is the same voice as the Father, understand the Lord Jesus Voice in the OT, and the NT. ....... hello, it's the same VOICE, the Father's voice, is the Son's Voice, supportive scripture, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." BINGO, now who voice is that?.... that's right the Lord JESUS VOICE, for is not the Father the Spirit, the Holy Spirit? the LORD, who is God, and is not the LORD .. "Father, (Isaiah 63:16 "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting)", and was is not God (the LORD), who inspired the prophets to write? yes, now lets see who is this Holy Spirit that was in the Prophets of Old who God spoke by... 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

HOLD IT the Spirit of Christ that was IN, IN, IN, the prothets again lets see who this "Spirit" is. 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." ... hello ..... hello

so the Spirit of Christ is the VOICE of the Father, who is the Holy Ghost, in the OT as well as the NT. .

so NO, Grace is Offered, and not IMPUTED. listen, "he", (meaning Male or Female), must "BELIEVE",, Romans 4:11 "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" that's a GOOD example, so, how can they believe, when they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher..... oh my, my, my classic GOD in action. one must BELIEVE the OFFER., read romans 10, BUT start with Roman chapter 4 first... oh forget it, read all of Romans... (smile), thank God for the NT.

Beloved Daughter, I thank you for the question, and not an argument, we both seek the truth, and asking and answering is the vehicle to use intsteed of the instrument of destruction ..... aguring. so again thanks for the reply, and question.

listen, "we leave the door open for truly a good discussion", in Jesus name we pray, Amen.

be blessed.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
We start from the beggining when Adam was giving the power to name the animals G-d gave him freewill to choose Genesis 2:20.
The free will question is not about choosing a Chevy or Ford, or vacationing in the mountains or at the shore; or what what to name you baby..
the question is can man in his natural state (without any outside influence) chose to have faith that saves?
 
First, Thanks for the reply, but consider this, is GRACE "OFFERED", (a choice) or "IMPUTED?", (a done deal). listen to the definition, IMPUTED, (of a value) assigned to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes; estimated.

now my question, if GRACE is "IMPUTED", why any need of a sinner repenting as in Luke 15:7 if it "IMPUTED?", or as as with John 6:44... and the rest of scriptures listed.

see by "GRACE" being OFFERED, it's a "CHOICE", just as the Person in the video said, God's "DESIRE", did not the bible already say this?

understand the scriptures, Luke 13:25 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:" if GRACE is IMPUTED, why are they KNOCKING? but Listen to this, Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." NOW, if GRACE was IMPUTED, why is he KNOCKING?...... seeking "IF", "IF", "IF", and if is a conditional "CHOICE. see the Point Now.
WHY is all of this? listen,, Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" well lets answer this, "obedience is better than sacrifice", and this is why the Lord Jesus said, Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him", hear his voice? yes, his voice is the same voice as the Father, understand the Lord Jesus Voice in the OT, and the NT. ....... hello, it's the same VOICE, the Father's voice, is the Son's Voice, supportive scripture, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." BINGO, now who voice is that?.... that's right the Lord JESUS VOICE, for is not the Father the Spirit, the Holy Spirit? the LORD, who is God, and is not the LORD .. "Father, (Isaiah 63:16 "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting)", and was is not God (the LORD), who inspired the prophets to write? yes, now lets see who is this Holy Spirit that was in the Prophets of Old who God spoke by... 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

HOLD IT the Spirit of Christ that was IN, IN, IN, the prothets again lets see who this "Spirit" is. 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." ... hello ..... hello

so the Spirit of Christ is the VOICE of the Father, who is the Holy Ghost, in the OT as well as the NT. .

so NO, Grace is Offered, and not IMPUTED. listen, "he", (meaning Male or Female), must "BELIEVE",, Romans 4:11 "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" that's a GOOD example, so, how can they believe, when they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher..... oh my, my, my classic GOD in action. one must BELIEVE the OFFER., read romans 10, BUT start with Roman chapter 4 first... oh forget it, read all of Romans... (smile), thank God for the NT.

Beloved Daughter, I thank you for the question, and not an argument, we both seek the truth, and asking and answering is the vehicle to use intsteed of the instrument of destruction ..... aguring. so again thanks for the reply, and question.

listen, "we leave the door open for truly a good discussion", in Jesus name we pray, Amen.

be blessed.

PICJAG, 101G.

I can only conclude that you didn't read the scriptures I provided. What do you think that Ephesians 2:8-9 means?

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

There is is. This is not your own doing, it is the gift of God.

1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)


Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


There it is, He has caused us to be born again. No free will involved.

Now I will address Revelation 3:20 Go back to your 'if, if, if.

Every bit of scripture has a context and so does Revelation 3:20.



 
The free will question is not about choosing a Chevy or Ford, or vacationing in the mountains or at the shore; or what what to name you baby..
the question is can man in his natural state (without any outside influence) chose to have faith that saves?
The answer is "No". Man's will is feeble at best, and completely subject to the desires of the flesh. Paul is very clear on the fact that whatever he wills doesn't happen. He does the exact opposite of what he wants to do, therefore free will is a joke.
 
Take a listen to 1 Timothy 2:4 presented by Salvation by Grace

Here is a different interpretation


If God wanted all men to be saved, they would be. Luke 15:7 proves it. Jesus is in heaven and he speaks about heaven. That means it's eternal.

No free will, no matter how much you want it to be true. Scripture quotes Jesus saying that only those drawn by the Father will be saved.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus said:
John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


Scripture also says this from the Apostle Paul
Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV) The golden chain of redemption.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Salvation is the work of our God.

I believe that salvation happens according to scripture, you have a different in interpretation belief.

God Speed
First thanks for the reply, second, who is this letter to? already saved people. not to unsaved people.
did you not hear your own verses given? ... "48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (they was appointed eternal life because they "BELIEVED", WHY? BECAUSE THEY "heard" ....... other words the the door was open to the knock). or as your other verse, 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
NOT OF WORKS, CORRECT, BUT "BELIEF". for the work is to "BELIEVE", again, how can they believe when they have not heard, see it now?

my friend Beloved Daughter, all of your answers are in the scriptures, even those you have posted.
did you not hear? right at the beginning of the verse, "For by, by, by, "GRACE" we're saved", STOP, now think what is the result of accepting GRACE? the gift of eternal life. BINGO, if eternal life was imputed, why "GRACE?" ..... well, hello. if it, the gift was imputed why BELIEVE? see it now.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
The free will question is not about choosing a Chevy or Ford, or vacationing in the mountains or at the shore; or what what to name you baby..
the question is can man in his natural state (without any outside influence) chose to have faith that saves?
we must disagree with your assessment. and here's why. Rom 12:3: "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." and what do one do with this MEASURE of FAITH? answer, Faith comes by ..... "HEARING", ADD TO IT. and what do we hear... the KNOCK ON THE DOOR, .... I mean HEARING the "WORD of GOD".... BINGO.

and to be rooted and grounded in the Faith, is to "KEEP ON ADDING", ... HEARING the WORD of God, scripture, 2Pet 1:4-12: "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth."

so we all have the "saving FAITH" in us from BIRTH, it what you do with it, because this is why the GREAT COMMISSION is so important. GO YE INTO ALL THE WORLD .... TEACH AND PREACH, SEE IT NOW? someone Faith is activated by the word of God THAT THEY HEAR. again Faith comes by HEARING. so God did not leave us HOPELESS IN THE WORLD. for everyone have the MEASURE of Faith. I like it the way the kjv put it by God, "The Measure" and not "A measure", meaning we all got the same amount.

ain't God GOOOOOD,

hope hat helped.

PICJAG, 101G
 
we must disagree with your assessment. and here's why. Rom 12:3: "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." and what do one do with this MEASURE of FAITH? answer, Faith comes by ..... "HEARING", ADD TO IT. and what do we hear... the KNOCK ON THE DOOR, .... I mean HEARING the "WORD of GOD".... BINGO.

and to be rooted and grounded in the Faith, is to "KEEP ON ADDING", ... HEARING the WORD of God, scripture, 2Pet 1:4-12: "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth."

so we all have the "saving FAITH" in us from BIRTH, it what you do with it, because this is why the GREAT COMMISSION is so important. GO YE INTO ALL THE WORLD .... TEACH AND PREACH, SEE IT NOW? someone Faith is activated by the word of God THAT THEY HEAR. again Faith comes by HEARING. so God did not leave us HOPELESS IN THE WORLD. for everyone have the MEASURE of Faith. I like it the way the kjv put it by God, "The Measure" and not "A measure", meaning we all got the same amount.

ain't God GOOOOOD,

hope hat helped.

PICJAG, 101




"so we all have the "saving FAITH" in us from BIRTH,"
do you mean the new birth?
if not: Show me where you saw that point being made
 
"so we all have the "saving FAITH" in us from BIRTH,"
do you mean the new birth?
if not: Show me where you saw that point being made
sure, Rom 3:25-26: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

see that "Lie" we're born into sin, error, for the work on the cross is for the world. we become sinner in or actions in knowing right from wrong in LIFE, so no one has an excuse,

so did you sin when you was a baby? no, because before under the law, which is the KNOWLEDGE, but by Christ dying on the cross, we are no longer under the law, as said the knowledge of sin, for, Rom 3:19-24,27: "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: … Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

now, are you under the "LAW?"... NO, ARE YOU "BORN" UNDER THE "CURSE?", of course not, but under "GRACE". BINGO.
thank GOD for the NEW COVENANT, GRACE, and NO Law.

now you asked about the "NEW BIRTH" , that after your natural birth. John 3:3-7: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

hope that helped.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
sure, Rom 3:25-26: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

see that "Lie" we're born into sin, error, for the work on the cross is for the world. we become sinner in or actions in knowing right from wrong in LIFE, so no one has an excuse,

so did you sin when you was a baby? no, because before under the law, which is the KNOWLEDGE, but by Christ dying on the cross, we are no longer under the law, as said the knowledge of sin, for, Rom 3:19-24,27: "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: … Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

now, are you under the "LAW?"... NO, ARE YOU "BORN" UNDER THE "CURSE?", of course not, but under "GRACE". BINGO.
thank GOD for the NEW COVENANT, GRACE, and NO Law.

now you asked about the "NEW BIRTH" , that after your natural birth. John 3:3-7: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

hope that helped.

PICJAG, 101G.
yep the natural man needs to be changed in order to believe
regeneration precedes faith
faith precedes justification
 
yep the natural man needs to be changed in order to believe
regeneration precedes faith
faith precedes justification
in the name of Jesus, correct, NOTE: Abraham was not under the Law. Rom 4:1-16: "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

PICJAG, 101G.
 
I was talking to someone private message he told me about freewill and said this.

1 Corinthians 10:12-14

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
1. Christians are threatened and even overtaken by sins brought about through temptations.

2. God never allows us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, but rather provides an escape so that we don’t give in and fall into the sin action that the temptation prompts in us.

3. Yet Christians sin, not only are they “overtaken” in the above quote, but also in 1 John 1:8 there’s the clear report that Christians sin. Most people agree Christians are sinners too.

Conclusion: Every time a Christian sins, the Bible says God provided a way to “escape” falling into that sin. Christians have the freewill to either use that escape route or to reject the God given means to avoid yielding to temptation.

Christians have proper freewill, meaning the ability to do otherwise in any given situation. Freewill isn’t simply “a belief” but an experience, something we can confirm with our own facilities as easily as we confirm light, heat, sound and sights.

Posters who use their counter causal freedom to deny counter causal freedom are deeply confused.
 
There are only two things Christians can do about temptation, Christians can either bear with the temptation or give in and satisfy the temptation.

The Bible says God prepares a way to abstain from sin every single time Christians give in to temptation and sin, but we know for a fact that Christians do sin and will continue to sin.

The Bible confirms both our God given freedom to avoid sin and the fact that we defer from Gods good way and give into temptation and sin.

Freedom exists in exactly the way you experience it, not in some counter intuitive, fruity double dipping way you’ll read about in the Westminster confession or the London baptist confession of faith. Those things are so removed from the real world it’s terrible.
 
anoter guy name " direct driver "
I think the only thing that actually exists is my consciousness. My body, this world, and all you guys are just a projection God put on my consciousness.

Prove me wrong.
:D


Obviously I'm joking. My point is that we don't know what we don't know regarding so much. One puts faith in the "ultimate" intellect of man at their own peril. Rather, I see us as an ant farm. You may be the smartest ant in the farm, but you still have the intellectual capacity of an ant. And we are more removed from God's ways than that ant is from ours.

And don't bother to try to explain to the and the difference between the functionality of a gasoline engine and a diesel engine.
;)


Free will? As far as we're concerned, yes, we have one, just as ants do. And they do - up to a point.
 
we were in in conversation later connor said.

We are made in Gods image and the Word became truly human, taking on “the intellectual capacity of an ant,” as you’ve shared.

So, however different we are from our Heavenly Father, stressing those differences (while He’s gone so far to remove them) seems to result more in confounding conversation, not improving it.
 
Back
Top