Is it okay to murder a baby that has been born if its parents are extremely poor and the baby will have a bad life?

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Hi Electric Skeptic and Whateverman,
Ignorant perhaps, perhaps not, but I offer that some of more are likely recognizing a higher law in their religious views which they understand as a higher authority to to which they would understandably have a greater allegiance. As for me. I have no problem recognizing the law of the land while I also see in this particular rule as out of harmony with divine or religious views with an emphasis on the sanctity of life.
The issue isn't about a higher law. It is about the English language term 'murder'. Abortion, where legal, cannot be murder by definition. That does not make it right, or moral, or a good idea, or permissible. It just means it is not murder. Those who claim it is are simply wrong as a matter of fact.

Many pro-lifers wrongly think that when someone points out that abortion is not murder they are condoning it or making some comment on its morality - see earlier in this thread where I was repeatedly attacked for doing no more than stating the easily verifiable fact. Those pro-lifers are wrong. Abortion is not murder (where it is legal) and those claiming it is are factually wrong. Including that claim in their arguments shows them to be sensationalists not interested in facts (one of my chief criticisms of the pro-lifers as a whole). They should realise that sensational, emotional tactics like trying to equate abortion with murder serve no purpose except making themselves and other pro-lifers feel good; they certainly do not advance the debate in any way.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Hi Electric Skeptic and Whateverman,
Ignorant perhaps, perhaps not, but I offer that some of more are likely recognizing a higher law in their religious views which they understand as a higher authority to to which they would understandably have a greater allegiance. As for me. I have no problem recognizing the law of the land while I also see in this particular rule as out of harmony with divine or religious views with an emphasis on the sanctity of life.
Hi Nic...

It's possible you're misunderstanding @Electric Skeptic and me. We're addressing a very specific topic: the definition/meaning of the word "murder". Even if you think abortion is bad/wrong/evil, wherever it's legal, it cannot be murder - by definition.

Gene's trolling here.

ps. I recognize your name as someone I've enjoyed talking with in the past. I appreciate the way you conduct yourself in these forums, and hope you and your loved ones are safe & healthy these days...
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Abortion, where legal, is not murder, by definition. This is simply fact, and your response to it is to repeatedly attack and insult me.



What if in a few years killing homosexuals was declared legal in your country, like it is in Islamic countries now?

Is it not murder in one country, yet murder in another?
 
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BMS

Well-known member
Given that I have fully understood what an abortion is, for over 35 years....
And thats ALL of me. ALL. There is no part of me that does not understand this.

Nope. Door number 3
An abortion is to terminate a PREGNANCY.
Nope? So are saying abortion is to terminate the mother?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Refute the definition of words. It has nothing to do with emptiness; it has to do with the simple definitions of English language words.

Abortion, where legal, is not murder, by definition. This is simply fact, and your response to it is to repeatedly attack and insult me.

I feel sorry for you.

Where this is legal... this movie is about a good thing.

 

Nic

Well-known member
Hi Nic...

It's possible you're misunderstanding @Electric Skeptic and me. We're addressing a very specific topic: the definition/meaning of the word "murder". Even if you think abortion is bad/wrong/evil, wherever it's legal, it cannot be murder - by definition.

Gene's trolling here.

ps. I recognize your name as someone I've enjoyed talking with in the past. I appreciate the way you conduct yourself in these forums, and hope you and your loved ones are safe & healthy these days...
As far as traditional Christianity is concerned, life is holy and to be cherished.
Hi Nic...

It's possible you're misunderstanding @Electric Skeptic and me. We're addressing a very specific topic: the definition/meaning of the word "murder". Even if you think abortion is bad/wrong/evil, wherever it's legal, it cannot be murder - by definition.

Gene's trolling here.

ps. I recognize your name as someone I've enjoyed talking with in the past. I appreciate the way you conduct yourself in these forums, and hope you and your loved ones are safe & healthy these days...
From a cursory search Christians have considered abortion murder and documented as such as early as Tertullian. It was at least in part to distinguish a Christian from the pagan of the day.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
As far as traditional Christianity is concerned, life is holy and to be cherished.
Unless you're God, in which case life can be discarded based on your mood at the moment.

From a cursory search Christians have considered abortion murder and documented as such as early as Tertullian. It was at least in part to distinguish a Christian from the pagan of the day.
If murder is nothing more than "a killing I have judged as Unjust", then every killing is murder, because you can always find someone who thinks it was Unjust.

The bible does NOT list abortion as unjust, and even suggests it is the opposite in some cases; in others, it charges a fine against the one who caused the spontaneous abortion (rather than accusing them of murder).

The Christian understanding of whether abortion is murder or not is far from cut-and-dry...
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
What if in a few years killing homosexuals was declared legal in your country, like it is in Islamic countries now?

Is it not murder in one country, yet murder in another?
Of course. Murder is the illegal killing of a person. Of course it changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
 

BMS

Well-known member
No. Read the actual words I posted, as I posted them.
I suggest you read them. You said "If an abortion fails, a mother dies in the table" The abortion terminates the baby. If you call it the pregnancy it means the abortion is to terminate the baby the mother is pregnant with. It means if an abortion fails the baby lives.
So do you suggest the baby is killed or was your conscience only clear when the offspring was in the womb?
 

BMS

Well-known member
Look up the word"pregnancy".
Look up the word "mother".

You may notice that they don't mean the same thing.

If you don't, get medical help.
I know what the words mean but I am asking you. Not that it is going to get me anywhere as you dont even know whether your imaginary transwomen are men or women.
If you cant answer get some professional medical help
 
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