Is it okay to murder a baby that has been born if its parents are extremely poor and the baby will have a bad life?

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
I suggest you read them.
Done. They have not changed
You said "If an abortion fails, a mother dies in the table"
BINGO!
You got something right
The abortion terminates the baby.
No. It terminates the PREGNANCY
If you call it the pregnancy it means the abortion is to terminate the baby the mother is pregnant with.
"If"
And not even then.
It means if an abortion fails the baby lives.
No. It means a mother dies.
So do you suggest the baby is killed or was your conscience only clear when the offspring was in the womb?
Door number three please.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Of course. Murder is the illegal killing of a person. Of course it changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
So there is no "right or wrong" with you. Only legal, and illegal.

One day something legal can be legislated to be the opposite.

So... you have no inner core values of right or wrong.

You flow with the path of least resistance.

No integrity. You will change with the wind.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
So there is no "right or wrong" with you. Only legal, and illegal.
Cite where I have said that.
One day something legal can be legislated to be the opposite.
Of course it can. That's how the law works.
So... you have no inner core values of right or wrong.
Cite where I have said that.
You flow with the path of least resistance.
Cite where I have said that.
No integrity. You will change with the wind.
Cite where I have said that.

I'll save you the effort - all of your statements above to which I have responded "Cite where i have said that" are false and your own invention. They are not true and you cannot cite anywhere I said them. You have made them up; they are complete fictions. I have nowhere said or implied them or anything like them. I thought honesty was supposed to be important in your religion?

You still haven't worked out what the discussion is even about.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Cite where I have said that.
People who think wrong do not preface what they say with "I do wrong."

That would be like someone saying... "I'm a liar. Do you believe me?"

You do not know what you do. Its apparent.

And, its not legal for me to tell you.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Hi Nic...

It's possible you're misunderstanding @Electric Skeptic and me. We're addressing a very specific topic: the definition/meaning of the word "murder". Even if you think abortion is bad/wrong/evil, wherever it's legal, it cannot be murder - by definition.

Gene's trolling here.

ps. I recognize your name as someone I've enjoyed talking with in the past. I appreciate the way you conduct yourself in these forums, and hope you and your loved ones are safe & healthy these days...
Hi Whateverman,
This second response is make amends for any omissions and esp. my social graces!
Murder is a legal term granted it is also a theological term not unlike condemned or justification. That's a point I wanted to make for you here.
Christians are a subset of society at large and Christians historically view abortion as murder. (I see your comment below about killing and objection and I'll respond further there. Thanks.
I'm not familiar with Gene although I've seen he was/is active in this topic. Beyond that I haven't followed that particular discourse.
On your post script, the feeling and experience is mutual and thank you very much!
I do also very much appreciate the warm greeting and the pleasant good well sentiments towards my loved ones and me. I wish and hope that you, your family and loved ones are safe and healthy as well!
 
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Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
People who think wrong do not preface what they say with "I do wrong."

That would be like someone saying... "I'm a liar. Do you believe me?"

You do not know what you do. Its apparent.

And, its not legal for me to tell you.
You are being dishonest. You stated all of the below about me:

- So there is no "right or wrong" with you. Only legal, and illegal.
- So... you have no inner core values of right or wrong.
- You flow with the path of least resistance.
- No integrity. You will change with the wind.

You cannot show anywhere I said or implied any of those things.

Will you be honest enough to admit it? I'm betting no.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
You are being dishonest. You stated all of the below about me:

- So there is no "right or wrong" with you. Only legal, and illegal.
- So... you have no inner core values of right or wrong.
- You flow with the path of least resistance.
- No integrity. You will change with the wind.

You cannot show anywhere I said or implied any of those things.

Will you be honest enough to admit it? I'm betting no.

" Taking a human life is murder.... But, only where it is illegal." Electric Skeptic 2021
 
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Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
" Taking a human life is murder.... But, only where it is illegal." Electric Skeptic 2021
Now misquoting me as well as making things up about me? You really have no respect for the truth at all, do you?

You stated all of the below about me:

- So there is no "right or wrong" with you. Only legal, and illegal.
- So... you have no inner core values of right or wrong.
- You flow with the path of least resistance.
- No integrity. You will change with the wind.

You cannot show anywhere I said or implied any of those things.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Now misquoting me as well as making things up about me? You really have no respect for the truth at all, do you?

You stated all of the below about me:

- So there is no "right or wrong" with you. Only legal, and illegal.
- So... you have no inner core values of right or wrong.
- You flow with the path of least resistance.
- No integrity. You will change with the wind.

You cannot show anywhere I said or implied any of those things.
Your art of ambiguity, denial,. and evasiveness... has ended.

Or..maybe? I'd get that problem with your short term memory tested.

I am done with your pretentiousness ..... Ignore.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Done. They have not changed

BINGO!
You got something right

No. It terminates the PREGNANCY

"If"
And not even then.

No. It means a mother dies.

Door number three please.
No. The abortion ends the pregnancy by terminating the unborn human offspring.
You described it as terminating the mother. If they carry out an abortion in the UK at 21 weeks and the human is delivered rather than killed and the mother lives, what would you do with the baby? Would you suggest it is killed, because that is what you would be prepared to have done to that human before it was born, and the mother is left with the offspring that she didnt want and was trying to get rid of?
 
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GeneZ

Well-known member
They have no idea of the delusion they are living with

I think some even act stupid to throw us off guard, knowing they can not win the argument if they were honest.

After all.. No one can be that stupid.

But, all the while they'll act like.."What's wrong? Its perfectly correct!"

so be it....
 

Nic

Well-known member
Unless you're God, in which case life can be discarded based on your mood at the moment.
I don't think of God as moody, can you be more specific?
If murder is nothing more than "a killing I have judged as Unjust", then every killing is murder, because you can always find someone who thinks it was Unjust.

The bible does NOT list abortion as unjust, and even suggests it is the opposite in some cases; in others, it charges a fine against the one who caused the spontaneous abortion (rather than accusing them of murder).

The Christian understanding of whether abortion is murder or not is far from cut-and-dry...
In the Christian worldview murder is synonymous with hatred for your fellow man let alone all the actions that flow from that that result in a death.
At the risk of being redundant something I believe worth emphasizing is paradigm. Standard according to whom or what and perhaps the definitions being utilized by representing that standard. A clear cut example would be today's partial and sporadic legalization of marijuana throughout the same region or country. Depending on jurisdiction one is either inside or outside of the law for the exact same details. This is how it is with abortion, people can appeal to a specific standard and that would result in a different understanding.
I bring this to your attention because you have alleged that anyone can merely claim a killing is unjust to be considered murder.

In order for a killing to be considered murder in the biblical sense, there are three requirements: First, the killing must be intentional; second, it must be a human that is killed; and third, the killing must be unlawful or unjust.​
It would seem with pointvthree that you may have some traction, but in the end what is unjust is defined by scripture.
There are a limited number of situations in which the Bible considers even the killing of another human not to be a sin. The first of these is the case of capital punishment. In several portions of the Old Testament law, God specifically commands that the leaders of Israel put people to death for certain crimes, such as murder or treason.​
...​
The second of these cases is that of a true accident, where the murder did not occur intentionally, but was the result of a mistake on the part of the killer and was not intended to cause death.​
...​
The third case is that of self-defense. The Bible never condemns a person for killing another as a result of defending himself or his family from a robber, intruder, or another who is seeking to harm them.​
...​
The last circumstance in which killing is not considered murder by the Bible is the case of a soldier killing in war.​
...​
Under these limited circumstances, a killing would not be considered murder from a moral perspective, but otherwise, the Bible considers all instances of one human directly causing the death of another to be murder. In fact, the Bible even considered the person who desires to murder another person to be guilty of murder in God’s eyes. (1 John 3:15)​

Nic
 
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Mr Laurier

Well-known member
No. The abortion ends the pregnancy by terminating the unborn human offspring.
And?
You described it as terminating the mother.
No. I did not.
If they carry out an abortion in the UK at 21 weeks and the human is delivered rather than killed and the mother lives, what would you do with the baby?
Ummm. The fact that its an abortion, means that no human was delivered.
An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy before term. Often because the fetus is already dead.
However, even if the fetus was alive, an abortion kills it. That is what an abortion is.
You are attempting to conflate pre-term delivery with abortion. They are NOT interchangeable.
Would you suggest it is killed, because that is what you would be prepared to have done to that human before it was born, and the mother is left with the offspring that she didnt want and was trying to get rid of?
If a baby is born alive, it is alive.
 

BMS

Well-known member
And so its not the mother dying as you said.

No. I did not.
So what did you mean by "If an abortion fails, a mother dies in the table. Its called a "botched abortion"."

Ummm. The fact that its an abortion, means that no human was delivered.
Its not an abortion the abortion failed.

An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy before term.
which involves medical intervention removing the unborn human from the womb

However, even if the fetus was alive,
Ok so you have just referred to the baby as a fetus. Remember the question
If they carry out an abortion in the UK at 21 weeks and the human is delivered rather than killed and the mother lives, what would you do with the baby?

You are attempting to conflate pre-term delivery with abortion. They are NOT interchangeable.
As I said the question was about the human being delivered rather than killed. The human in the womb can come out by miscarriage, by being delivered of by being smashed destroyed and sucked out in abortion. It was abortion I said, abortion that we were talking about and abortion that I asked you about.

So what is your answer? Not what the state of it is, but what would you do with it?
If they carry out an abortion in the UK at 21 weeks and the human is delivered rather than killed and the mother lives, what would you do with the baby?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
If they carry out an abortion in the UK at 21 weeks and the human is delivered rather than killed and the mother lives, what would you do with the baby?
, Care for it until it dies. Which will almost certainly be within a few weeks.

It should be noted that this would be a successful abortion, as the pregnancy has been terminated.
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
So what did you mean by "If an abortion fails, a mother dies in the table. Its called a "botched abortion"."
Read it out loud until you understand it.
An abortion that fails, is called a "botched abortion".
When an abortion is botched, the mother usually dies.
Occasionaly, a botched abortion will happen in a hospital or clinic, with proper medical facilities... and the mother can be saved. Although generally she will need an emergency hysterectomy to avoid bleeding to death.
That said, most botched abortions happen because back alley surgeons, witch doctors, faith healers, and voodoo priests, are the providers of abortion where abortion is illegal.
And they have neither the facilities, nor the training, to perform a safe abortion.
The result is that many women end up dead on the kitchen table of a semi-literate quack who bought their credentials.


If they carry out an abortion in the UK at 21 weeks and the human is delivered rather than killed and the mother lives, what would you do with the baby?
There is no baby. Try to get that through your head.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
It is never OK to murder anyone, including born babies.

Pregnant women should have the option to terminate unwanted pregnancies.
Perhaps the morality of this question would be easier to understand if it was framed slightly differently. Should pregnant women be free to abort unwanted Democrat voters? Because the women who seem to be gung ho about abortion are all Democrats.
Their reasons are not the business of anyone else.
So it would be OK for a woman to abort a child because scientist developed a test for the gay gene and the mother knew that their child was going to be gay?
Especially RW busybodies
The people on the "right wing" that I know want to live and let live. Abortion violates the second half of the principle.
who also object to social safety net programs
Like the program that pays people so much money not to work that small businesses can't get anybody to come back to work? I think there are sound policy reasons for being against that directive.
that provide pre- and post-natal care for pregnant women and nutrition and other support for children in poor families.
The people who support the pro-life movement spends lots of money on addressing these needs. The primary difference is the money they're spending as their own, not someone else's.
 
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