Is it only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality?

T

Tercon

Well-known member
Is the belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?
 
Tercon said:
Strawman. But I am not referring to or denoting "unjustified" or "false beliefs", but just justified true beliefs.
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Wow...you can't even follow your own thread. Let's recap:

In the OP you asked "Is the belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?"

I attempted to explain to you that a belief can be unjustified but true thus it denotes reality.

Why do you have so much difficulty understanding what belief is?
 
Tercon said:
Is the belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?
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No, this is not a justified true belief. For the reasons given elsewhere in this thread. And also for the reasons given in several examples of the link you yourself posted on the thread you have abandoned.
 
TeabagSalad said:
Wow...you can't even follow your own thread. Let's recap: In the OP you asked "Is the belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?"

I attempted to explain to you that a belief can be unjustified but true thus it denotes reality.

Why do you have so much difficulty understanding what belief is?
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Well explain why my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality isn't a justified true belief?

Temujin said:
No, this is not a justified true belief. For the reasons given elsewhere in this thread. And also for the reasons given in several examples of the link you yourself posted on the thread you have abandoned.
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But you have not given any "reasons" elsewhere in this thread or any other thread why my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality isn't a justified true belief? Explain.

Whatsisface said:
No you weren't, you were referring to a belief about justified belief.
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Yes, it is a belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to and denote the truth and reality. Please explain why this justified true belief doesn't refer to the truth and denote reality?
 
Tercon said:
Well explain why my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality isn't a justified true belief?



But you have not given any "reasons" elsewhere in this thread or any other thread why my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality isn't a justified true belief? Explain.
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True beliefs are not always justified. From the link you yourself provided:

Imagine that we are seeking water on a hot day. We suddenly see water, or so we think. In fact, we are not seeing water but a mirage, but when we reach the spot, we are lucky and find water right there under a rock. Can we say that we had genuine knowledge of water? The answer seems to be negative, for we were just lucky. (quoted from Dreyfus 1997: 292)

Another example:

Let it be assumed that Plato is next to you and you know him to be running, but you mistakenly believe that he is Socrates, so that you firmly believe that Socrates is running. However, let it be so that Socrates is in fact running in Rome; however, you do not know this. (from Peter of Mantua’s De scire et dubitare, given in Boh 1985: 95)

There are also examples of true, justified beliefs that are not knowledge, Take this example, again from your link:

The well-known Barn County case (Goldman 1976). Suppose there is a county in the Midwest with the following peculiar feature. The landscape next to the road leading through that county is peppered with barn-facades: structures that from the road look exactly like barns. Observation from any other viewpoint would immediately reveal these structures to be fakes: devices erected for the purpose of fooling unsuspecting motorists into believing in the presence of barns. Suppose Henry is driving along the road that leads through Barn County. Naturally, he will on numerous occasions form false beliefs in the presence of barns. Since Henry has no reason to suspect that he is the victim of organized deception, these beliefs are justified. Now suppose further that, on one of those occasions when he believes there is a barn over there, he happens to be looking at the one and only real barn in the county. This time, his belief is justified and true. But since its truth is the result of luck, it is exceedingly plausible to judge that Henry’s belief is not an instance of knowledge. (bolding mine)
Tercon said:
Yes, it is a belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to and denote the truth and reality. Please explain why this justified true belief doesn't refer to the truth and denote reality?
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You are simply wrong to call this belief justified or true. It has no justification and is not true. using coloured crayons and shouting do not make what is false, true. Your belief is a false belief. You hold something to be true, that is not true. Your false belief is shown to be false by evidence that you provided yourself in this link. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/#KnowJustTrueBeli

Finally, another way of looking at this subject, known as AAA:

An analogy of a skilled archer shooting at a target; we may find it instructive as well. Here are two ways in which an archer’s shot might be evaluated:

  1. Was the shot successful? Did it hit its target?
  2. Did the shot’s execution manifest the archer’s skill? Was it produced in a way that makes it likely to succeed?
The kind of success at issue in (1), Sosa calls accuracy. The kind of skill discussed in (2), Sosa calls adroitness. A shot is adroit if it is produced skillfully. Adroit shots needn’t be accurate, as not all skilled shots succeed. And accurate shots needn’t be adroit, as some unskilled shots are lucky.

In addition to accuracy and adroitness, Sosa suggests that there is another respect in which a shot may be evaluated, relating the two. This, Sosa calls aptness.

  1. Did the shot’s success manifest the archer’s skill?
A shot is apt if it is accurate because adroit. Aptness entails, but requires more than, the conjunction of accuracy and adroitness, for a shot might be both successful and skillful without being apt. For example, if a skillful shot is diverted by an unexpected gust of wind, then redirected towards the target by a second lucky gust, its ultimate accuracy does not manifest the skill, but rather reflects the lucky coincidence of the wind.

Sosa suggests that this “AAA” model of evaluation is applicable quite generally for the evaluation of any action or object with a characteristic aim. In particular, it is applicable to belief with respect to its aim at truth:

  1. A belief is accurate if and only if it is true.
  2. A belief is adroit if and only if it is produced skillfully.(in other words, through justified examination of evidence)
  3. A belief is apt if and only if it is true in a way manifesting, or attributable to, the believer’s skill. (in other words, only if it is the justification that led to the truth, rather than a lucky guess)
  4. Knowledge entails both truth (accuracy) and justification (adroitness), on this view, but they are not merely independent components out of which knowledge is truth-functionally composed. It requires that the skill explain the success.
 
Temujin said:
True beliefs are not always justified. From the link you yourself provided:
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Strawman. Again, I am not referring to "beliefs" that "are not always justified". Rather I am ONLY referring to beliefs that are always justified and they are called justified true beliefs.
For instance; in this case I am ONLY referring to 'my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality' being a 'justified true belief'. Why isn't this belief a 'justified true belief'?

Temujin said:
Imagine that we are seeking water on a hot day. We suddenly see water, or so we think. In fact, we are not seeing water but a mirage, but when we reach the spot, we are lucky and find water right there under a rock. Can we say that we had genuine knowledge of water? The answer seems to be negative, for we were just lucky. (quoted from Dreyfus 1997: 292)

Another example:

Let it be assumed that Plato is next to you and you know him to be running, but you mistakenly believe that he is Socrates, so that you firmly believe that Socrates is running. However, let it be so that Socrates is in fact running in Rome; however, you do not know this. (from Peter of Mantua’s De scire et dubitare, given in Boh 1985: 95)

There are also examples of true, justified beliefs that are not knowledge, Take this example, again from your link:

The well-known Barn County case (Goldman 1976). Suppose there is a county in the Midwest with the following peculiar feature. The landscape next to the road leading through that county is peppered with barn-facades: structures that from the road look exactly like barns. Observation from any other viewpoint would immediately reveal these structures to be fakes: devices erected for the purpose of fooling unsuspecting motorists into believing in the presence of barns. Suppose Henry is driving along the road that leads through Barn County. Naturally, he will on numerous occasions form false beliefs in the presence of barns. Since Henry has no reason to suspect that he is the victim of organized deception, these beliefs are justified. Now suppose further that, on one of those occasions when he believes there is a barn over there, he happens to be looking at the one and only real barn in the county. This time, his belief is justified and true. But since its truth is the result of luck, it is exceedingly plausible to judge that Henry’s belief is not an instance of knowledge. (bolding mine)
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Another big fat strawman.

And I am sorry that you took the time to put that together, but that doesn't have anything to do with my question about my particular 'belief' that I am referring to in the OP.
Here it is again; and please stop getting yourself sidetracked with all the strawmen and just stick to what you are being asked about. It isn't any other belief; it is ONLY referring to and denoting my belief that I laid out for you in and with my OP: Is my 'belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief'? And if it isn't, then explain why that particular 'belief' isn't a 'justified true belief'. And talking about or referring to other "beliefs" other than that particular 'belief' isn't denoting a justified true belief, but just denoting strawmen. Understand?

Temujin said:
You are simply wrong to call this belief justified or true. It has no justification and is not true. using coloured crayons and shouting do not make what is false, true. Your belief is a false belief. You hold something to be true, that is not true. Your false belief is shown to be false by evidence that you provided yourself in this link. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/#KnowJustTrueBeli

Finally, another way of looking at this subject, known as AAA:

An analogy of a skilled archer shooting at a target; we may find it instructive as well. Here are two ways in which an archer’s shot might be evaluated:
  1. Was the shot successful? Did it hit its target?
  2. Did the shot’s execution manifest the archer’s skill? Was it produced in a way that makes it likely to succeed?
The kind of success at issue in (1), Sosa calls accuracy. The kind of skill discussed in (2), Sosa calls adroitness. A shot is adroit if it is produced skillfully. Adroit shots needn’t be accurate, as not all skilled shots succeed. And accurate shots needn’t be adroit, as some unskilled shots are lucky.

In addition to accuracy and adroitness, Sosa suggests that there is another respect in which a shot may be evaluated, relating the two. This, Sosa calls aptness.

  1. Did the shot’s success manifest the archer’s skill?
A shot is apt if it is accurate because adroit. Aptness entails, but requires more than, the conjunction of accuracy and adroitness, for a shot might be both successful and skillful without being apt. For example, if a skillful shot is diverted by an unexpected gust of wind, then redirected towards the target by a second lucky gust, its ultimate accuracy does not manifest the skill, but rather reflects the lucky coincidence of the wind.

Sosa suggests that this “AAA” model of evaluation is applicable quite generally for the evaluation of any action or object with a characteristic aim. In particular, it is applicable to belief with respect to its aim at truth:

  1. A belief is accurate if and only if it is true.
  2. A belief is adroit if and only if it is produced skillfully.(in other words, through justified examination of evidence)
  3. A belief is apt if and only if it is true in a way manifesting, or attributable to, the believer’s skill. (in other words, only if it is the justification that led to the truth, rather than a lucky guess)
  4. Knowledge entails both truth (accuracy) and justification (adroitness), on this view, but they are not merely independent components out of which knowledge is truth-functionally composed. It requires that the skill explain the success.
Click to expand...

More strawmanning. Again, I am not referring to any other "beliefs" that "are not always justified". Rather I am ONLY referring to beliefs that are always justified and they are called justified true beliefs.
For instance; in this case I am ONLY referring to 'my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality' being a 'justified true belief'. Why isn't this 'belief' a 'justified true belief'?
 
Tercon said:
Yes, it is a belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to and denote the truth and reality. Please explain why this justified true belief doesn't refer to the truth and denote reality?
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Never said it didn't. You're going off the rails because you're not following what's actually being said by both yourself and others.
 
Whatsisface said:
Never said it didn't. You're going off the rails because you're not following what's actually being said by both yourself and others.
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Strawman and projection. I am saying what I am saying and here is what I am saying: Is my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?

While you and the rest of the atheists are busying yourselves referring to and denoting anything but my particular 'belief': Is my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?
 
Tercon said:
Strawman and projection. I am saying what I am saying and here is what I am saying: Is my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?
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You're doing it again, going off the rails. The above isn't saying anything, it's just asking a question.
Tercon said:
While you and the rest of the atheists are busying yourselves referring to and denoting anything but my particular 'belief': Is my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?
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But the above doesn't state a belief, it only asks a question.
 
Whatsisface said:
You're doing it again, going off the rails. The above isn't saying anything, it's just asking a question.
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Strawman and projection, a question that you can't justify in denying that it is a justified true belief without invoking "false beliefs" or "unjustified beliefs". When in reality my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality is a justified true belief to begin with.

Whatsisface said:
But the above doesn't state a belief, it only asks a question.
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Well stop evading and answer the question; Is my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?
 
Tercon said:
Strawman and projection,
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No, what you said was a question, not a statement that you claimed.
Tercon said:
a question that you can't justify in denying that it is a justified true belief without invoking "false beliefs" or "unjustified beliefs". When in reality my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality is a justified true belief to begin with.
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Strawman, projection and irrelevant. What is there to deny about a question?
Tercon said:
Well stop evading and answer the question; Is my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief?
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No, incorrect. Unjustified truths also refer to the truth and denote realty because they are truths.
 
Whatsisface said:
No, what you said was a question, not a statement that you claimed.

Strawman, projection and irrelevant. What is there to deny about a question?
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Exactly, what is unjustified about saying or believing that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality?

Whatsisface said:
No, incorrect. Unjustified truths also refer to the truth and denote realty because they are truths.
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Strawman. But I am not referring to or denoting a "Unjustified" true "belief". I am saying that I believe only justified true beliefs refer to the truth and denote reality. What is "Unjustified" or "false" about saying and holding this belief?
 
Tercon said:
Exactly, what is unjustified about saying or believing that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality?
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The fact that unjustified true beliefs also refer to truth of course.
Tercon said:
Strawman. But I am not referring to or denoting a "Unjustified" true "belief". I am saying that I believe only justified true beliefs refer to the truth and denote reality. What is "Unjustified" or "false" about saying and holding this belief?
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Yes, you're wrong.
 
Tercon said:
Strawman. Again, I am not referring to "beliefs" that "are not always justified". Rather I am ONLY referring to beliefs that are always justified and they are called justified true beliefs.
For instance; in this case I am ONLY referring to 'my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality' being a 'justified true belief'. Why isn't this belief a 'justified true belief'?



Another big fat strawman.

And I am sorry that you took the time to put that together, but that doesn't have anything to do with my question about my particular 'belief' that I am referring to in the OP.
Here it is again; and please stop getting yourself sidetracked with all the strawmen and just stick to what you are being asked about. It isn't any other belief; it is ONLY referring to and denoting my belief that I laid out for you in and with my OP: Is my 'belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality a justified true belief'? And if it isn't, then explain why that particular 'belief' isn't a 'justified true belief'. And talking about or referring to other "beliefs" other than that particular 'belief' isn't denoting a justified true belief, but just denoting strawmen. Understand?



More strawmanning. Again, I am not referring to any other "beliefs" that "are not always justified". Rather I am ONLY referring to beliefs that are always justified and they are called justified true beliefs.
For instance; in this case I am ONLY referring to 'my belief that it is only justified true beliefs that refer to the truth and denote reality' being a 'justified true belief'. Why isn't this 'belief' a 'justified true belief'?
Click to expand...
It isn't a justified true belief because it has no justification. You have produced no evidence to justify this belief. You have simply asserted that it is. Why is it justified?

It isn't a justified true belief because it isn't true. It has been demonstrated that it isn't true. Counter examples showing it not to be true are abundant and have been shown to you. How can you claim that your belief is justified and true when you have shown no justification and it has beeb shown to be not true?
 
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