Collosians 1 speaks about the beginning creation. verse15--Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation( created direct, first and last)--100% proof it speaks of the beginning creation. Verse 16= Because by means of him( Jesus)all( other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth( proof its about the beginning, and not born as a mortal as blind guides say) the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or govts or authorities . ALL ( other) things have been created through him and for him. --- See the words-through him? That means one greater than him did the creating through him. At Proverbs 8= Gods master worker=Jesus, he gives all credit to God for the creation at Prov 8. Tells all he was created( Prov 8:22-25)-- Will you believe Jesus over these-2Cor 11:12-15?
Is Jesus the creator?
- Thread starter keiw
- Start date
Josheb
Well-known member
Yes
Since the OP is a JW, he should love this:
Watch Tower Reprints: The Apostle sets the whole matter straight, saying, "To us there is one God of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things." This explains the matter. The power all resided in the Father--everything is of him, from him, through the Son, by the Son as his honored instrument and representative, "that all men may honor the Son even as they honor the Father also." (John 5:23.) It will be noticed from this last quotation as well as in all the other statements here examined that there is no suggestion whatever that the Father is the Son and that the Son is his own Father, but quite to the contrary--that there are two persons, both Gods, both Creators, but the one the superior, the other his honored representative in glory and in power. (The Light and Life of Men, December 15, 1904, Vol. 25, No. 24, page 3475)
And he should love this:
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (KJV)
The Creator shall rule "for ever and ever."
The Watchtower: And in the final book of the Bible the apostle John quoted voices out of heaven that said about the Lord Jehovah: "He will rule as king forever and ever." The writer John here uses the plural form of the Greek phrase, which literally means "to the ages of the ages." (Rev. 11:15; 1 Tim. 1:17) With regard to the future, then, John knew unquestionably that our Creator will reign "into the ages of the ages." (Kingdom Interlinear Translation) (Serve with Eternity in View, June 15, 1974, page 376)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1974446
The JW's then affirm "he shall reign for ever and ever" in Revelation 11:15 refers to the Lord Jesus. Thus, He is the Creator (see above)
The Watchtower: the Scriptures speak of Christ's rule of having "no end." (Isa. 9:7; Luke 1:33; Rev. 11:15). (Jesus' Royal Act of Humility, January 1, 1977, page 10)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1977003
Watch Tower Reprints: The Apostle sets the whole matter straight, saying, "To us there is one God of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things." This explains the matter. The power all resided in the Father--everything is of him, from him, through the Son, by the Son as his honored instrument and representative, "that all men may honor the Son even as they honor the Father also." (John 5:23.) It will be noticed from this last quotation as well as in all the other statements here examined that there is no suggestion whatever that the Father is the Son and that the Son is his own Father, but quite to the contrary--that there are two persons, both Gods, both Creators, but the one the superior, the other his honored representative in glory and in power. (The Light and Life of Men, December 15, 1904, Vol. 25, No. 24, page 3475)
And he should love this:
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (KJV)
The Creator shall rule "for ever and ever."
The Watchtower: And in the final book of the Bible the apostle John quoted voices out of heaven that said about the Lord Jehovah: "He will rule as king forever and ever." The writer John here uses the plural form of the Greek phrase, which literally means "to the ages of the ages." (Rev. 11:15; 1 Tim. 1:17) With regard to the future, then, John knew unquestionably that our Creator will reign "into the ages of the ages." (Kingdom Interlinear Translation) (Serve with Eternity in View, June 15, 1974, page 376)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1974446
The JW's then affirm "he shall reign for ever and ever" in Revelation 11:15 refers to the Lord Jesus. Thus, He is the Creator (see above)
The Watchtower: the Scriptures speak of Christ's rule of having "no end." (Isa. 9:7; Luke 1:33; Rev. 11:15). (Jesus' Royal Act of Humility, January 1, 1977, page 10)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1977003
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Both Job 9:8 and Isaiah 44:24 teach that what was created was done by God alone.
Jesus was involved in the work of creating.
Therefore, Jesus is God.
The word "other" does not exist in the Greek text.
JW's used to have this in brackets in their New World Perversion Translation (1984)
But in their 2013 perversion the brackets were scrapped.
Coll 1:16 things were created-through him. That means another was responsible for creating everything.
Yes God alone, by his power created all things alone in that aspect, he is the only one with power- He created Michael direct-first and last, then created all other things through Michael, the being the Father sent to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal=Gods master worker.
Coll 1:16--things were created THROUGH Jesus--by another obviously.
Which then you call God a liar for the Bible teaches He did this alone.
I know that, but it belongs in parenthesis.
All in darkness condemn the Nwt--the only translators who had love and respect for Gods will to put his name back where he wants it. Condemned by all who lack the love and respect for Gods will and mislead to support satan's will instead by keeping Gods name removed. Because by satan's will it was removed. All can see whose will is getting the support.
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Exactly!
John 1:3 refutes him. Nothing that was created was made without Him. Thus He could not have been created. Christ is an eternal Person, having never been created. Note Colossians 1:16-17 as well.
Give proof why it should.
It doesn't exist in the Greek text.
It doesn't exist in one version as seen here:
Colossians 1:16 - Bible Gateway
Who were they?
Here we go again, with the same ole misunderstanding of what "first-born" mean Scriptually. Yes, Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" in Greek is "prototokos" and it signifies priority. This does not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to RANK. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.
It expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. Psalm 89:27 referring to the Messiah, "I will make Him My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth." Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God. Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; and Revelation 1:5. These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.
If it does not, then how do you explain Jesus Christ being identified as the creator at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 by His own Father and Revelation 3:14? Also, Isaiah 44:24 declares, "I, the Lord am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF and spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."
Please reconcile this verse with the verses I just provided? Secondly, can you please tell me or explain from the NWT explanation of Colossians 1;16 what are these "other things" that Jesus created that God apparently forgot about at Isaiah 44:24? I would love to know?
IN GOD THE SON,
james
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
The God of Jesus?
Perhaps it completely escaped you, but you just argued that what was created was created by Jesus alone.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Doesn't say "him." It says autos. Autos is not equivalent to "him."
Doesn't say "made." The verb here is "to be" not "to do" or "to make."
John 1:3 says everything came to be through the word. The grammar tells you no more than this. Imaginations of men do that.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Which one?
Do ya think that might be because he is the firstborn of the dead (v.18)?
Firstborn is heirship language. God appointed him heir of all creation when he raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand. That's WHEN he came to be "first in all things." (v.18)
If that were the case, it should say" were created the heavens and the earth." But it doesn't. It says "all things IN the heavens and ON the earth." That is a reference to the kosmos which is reconciled to God in the risen Christ as Paul states in verse 20 where he sums up saying all things IN heaven and ON earth were reconciled to God through Christ. Same idea at 2 Cor 5:19.
Don't see any of that in Genesis do ya? Yes I know, you'll go right ahead and just imagine it into the Genesis account and somehow suppose that's okay to do.
Well at least you managed to get that part right.
Proverbs 8 (and the rest of the book) is referring to God's wisdom personified as a woman. You have a ludicrous interpretation on your hands.
God through the holy spirit, through righteous men.Give proof why it should.
It doesn't exist in the Greek text.
It doesn't exist in one version as seen here:
Colossians 1:16 - Bible Gateway
www.biblegateway.com
Who were they?
Its not me misunderstanding it. I showed the facts, its about the beginning creation. Its you believing blind guides.
I know 100% the JW,s are correct. This world is in big trouble. Its almost done. Look how bad this sick system is. Men are destroying Gods creation. He will step in soon.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Self reaffirmations don't do anyone any good whatsoever.
Neither will tickling your itching ears.