Is Jesus the creator?

[jamesh]

Its not me misunderstanding it. I showed the facts, its about the beginning creation. Its you believing blind guides.

Instead of changing the subject why can't you answer a specific question I posed to you? God clearly stated He created everything "All Alone and By Himself" at Isaiah 44:24. Since this is true how do you explain Jesus clearly being identified as creating as well at John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16?

Even you NWT admits at Colossians 1:16 that Jesus created "all other things." What are these other things that He created since God stated He created all alone?

Also, if as you say the JW's are 100% correct then do you believe what your founder stated about Jesus Christ? Russel stated that Jesus is "NOT" Michael the arc angel and that Jesus should be worshipped. He even quoted Hebrews 1:5-10 where the Father of Jesus identifies Jesus as God, (vs8) and identifies Jesus as the creator at Hebrews 1:10. So please address these glaring inconsistencies and contradictions.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Fred]

God through the holy spirit, through righteous men.

That's not proof that it refers to those who produced the New World Translation.

Just you saying so is unconvincing.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Instead of changing the subject why can't you answer a specific question I posed to you? God clearly stated He created everything "All Alone and By Himself" at Isaiah 44:24. Since this is true how do you explain Jesus clearly being identified as creating as well at John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16?

You aren't listening to what he said.

Even you NWT admits at Colossians 1:16 that Jesus created "all other things."

No they don't.

You aren't listening.

What are these other things that He created since God stated He created all alone?

Also, if as you say the JW's are 100% correct then do you believe what your founder stated about Jesus Christ? Russel stated that Jesus is "NOT" Michael the arc angel and that Jesus should be worshipped. He even quoted Hebrews 1:5-10 where the Father of Jesus identifies Jesus as God, (vs8) and identifies Jesus as the creator at Hebrews 1:10. So please address these glaring inconsistencies and contradictions.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[jamesh]

You aren't listening to what he said.



No they don't.

You aren't listening.

Oh I'm listening alright! Get educated and read the following: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/colossians/1/

Scroll down to vs 16 and read it. Also on the right side scroll down to vs16. Now tell me, since according to Isaiah 44:24 God created ALL things BY HIMSELF AND ALL ALONE please tell me what the "other" things are that Jesus created?

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Our Lord's God]

Oh I'm listening alright! Get educated and read the following: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/colossians/1/

Scroll down to vs 16 and read it. Also on the right side scroll down to vs16. Now tell me, since according to Isaiah 44:24 God created ALL things BY HIMSELF AND ALL ALONE please tell me what the "other" things are that Jesus created?

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Not sinking in eh? Here is what it says at the link:

"created through him and for him: Although God’s firstborn Son, Jesus, is here said to have been involved in the creation of all things, the Scriptures do not call him the Creator"

 

[jamesh]

Not sinking in eh? Here is what it says at the link:

"created through him and for him: Although God’s firstborn Son, Jesus, is here said to have been involved in the creation of all things, the Scriptures do not call him the Creator"

Read it again "clueless" one. "by means of him all other things were created: God used “his beloved Son” (Col 1:13) in creating the things “in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible.” This would include the millions of other spirit sons in Jehovah God’s heavenly family, as well as the physical universe." What part of "BY MEANS OF HIM ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED." And what about, "THIS WOULD INCLUDE THE MILLIONS OF OTHER SPIRIT SONS ETC.

Since Jesus is also created by Jehovah according to the witnesses and just a man like the rest of us how is it possible for him to create millions of spirit sons? And since the JW's also believe that Jesus is really Michael the arc angel, show me in the Bible where angels have done some creating for Jehovah?

Need I say more, "CHECKMATE."

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Our Lord's God]

Read it again "clueless" one. "by means of him all other things were created: God used “his beloved Son” (Col 1:13) in creating the things “in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible.” This would include the millions of other spirit sons in Jehovah God’s heavenly family, as well as the physical universe." What part of "BY MEANS OF HIM ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED." And what about, "THIS WOULD INCLUDE THE MILLIONS OF OTHER SPIRIT SONS ETC.

Since Jesus is also created by Jehovah according to the witnesses and just a man like the rest of us how is it possible for him to create millions of spirit sons? And since the JW's also believe that Jesus is really Michael the arc angel, show me in the Bible where angels have done some creating for Jehovah?

Need I say more, "CHECKMATE."

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Maybe you don't catch on too quick. Here is what you said:

Even you NWT admits at Colossians 1:16 that Jesus created "all other things."

But the Watchtower denies Jesus did any creating. The text says all things were created THROUGH him and the NWT "by means of him". The Watchtower says that means God did the creating through him. He was not the Creator but the means of the Creator by which the Creator created.

On that particular point, they are quite correct. You are just confusing yourself with your own confusion.

 

[jamesh]

Maybe you don't catch on too quick. Here is what you said:

Even you NWT admits at Colossians 1:16 that Jesus created "all other things."

But the Watchtower denies Jesus did any creating. The text says all things were created THROUGH him and the NWT "by means of him". The Watchtower says that means God did the creating through him. He was not the Creator but the means of the Creator by which the Creator created.

On that particular point, they are quite correct. You are just confusing yourself with your own confusion.

Ok, I guess it's time to play hardball with you. Apparently you don't know the definition of the word, "by" and the word "through." "BY" is used to indicate "origin," or by the agency of. "THROUGH" is used to indicate the manner in which something is achieved.

These two prepositions are sometimes used interchangeable. However, it is easy to distinguish the difference between these two prepositions by keeping in mind that by is mostly used when referring to a means of something, and through is used in relation to a process. The word "through" is used as a function word to indicate means or because of. If you don't believe me look up the two words yourself.

In short, all things were created by Him/Jesus Christ and through Him or because of Him or on the basis of who He is.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Our Lord's God]

Ok, I guess it's time to play hardball with you.

Hardball. Oh goody.

Apparently you don't know the definition of the word, "by" and the word "through." "BY" is used to indicate "origin," or by the agency of. "THROUGH" is used to indicate the manner in which something is achieved.

Yeah that's what the Watchtower is pointing out. The words here are EN (in) and DIA (through) depending on which end of v.16 you are referring to.

These two prepositions are sometimes used interchangeable.

Except when you used the word "by" to translate DIA, it necessarily means "by means of."

However, it is easy to distinguish the difference between these two prepositions by keeping in mind that by is mostly used when referring to a means of something, and through is used in relation to a process. The word "through" is used as a function word to indicate means or because of.
If you don't believe me look up the two words yourself.

You haven't said anything which proves a point of any kind.

In short, all things were created by Him/Jesus Christ and through Him

This is the Greek words in question here are EN which simply means "in" (not 'by') and DIA which means "through" or "by means of." DIA does not "by" in the sense of a cause but that is what you are attempting to squeeze out of it.

or because of Him or on the basis of who He is.

NO. This is decidedly wrong.

That was more like a nerfball.

 

[keiw]

Self reaffirmations don't do anyone any good whatsoever.



Neither will tickling your itching ears.

The teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers as does Israelite true God worship history. Few know what Jesus actually taught.

 

[keiw]

Instead of changing the subject why can't you answer a specific question I posed to you? God clearly stated He created everything "All Alone and By Himself" at Isaiah 44:24. Since this is true how do you explain Jesus clearly being identified as creating as well at John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16?

Even you NWT admits at Colossians 1:16 that Jesus created "all other things." What are these other things that He created since God stated He created all alone?

Also, if as you say the JW's are 100% correct then do you believe what your founder stated about Jesus Christ? Russel stated that Jesus is "NOT" Michael the arc angel and that Jesus should be worshipped. He even quoted Hebrews 1:5-10 where the Father of Jesus identifies Jesus as God, (vs8) and identifies Jesus as the creator at Hebrews 1:10. So please address these glaring inconsistencies and contradictions.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

God is the only one with-POWER. All things were created by his power alone.

 

[keiw]

That's not proof that it refers to those who produced the New World Translation.

Just you saying so is unconvincing.

Its how God has always done translation( his real translation) with his name in place about 7000 spots.

 

[Our Lord's God]

The teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers as does Israelite true God worship history.

No they don't.

Few know what Jesus actually taught.

Is that what they get you to think?

 

[Josheb]

Coll 1:16 things were created-through him. That means another was responsible for creating everything.

That would be true if the one selected verse is proof-texted, but proof-texting is always bad practice. When all the relevant verses about Jesus are considered together then we learn that all things were created, 1) through, 2) with, and 3) by him. These three are not mutually exclusive of one another. Especially when all the comparisons between Jesus and God are compiled. They are either all sacrilegious and heretical and we can throw out the entire Bible (and this thread with it) or they are true and correct exactly as written. Jesus is God.

 

[keiw]

That would be true if the one selected verse is proof-texted, but proof-texting is always bad practice. When all the relevant verses about Jesus are considered together then we learn that all things were created, 1) through, 2) with, and 3) by him. These three are not mutually exclusive of one another. Especially when all the comparisons between Jesus and God are compiled. They are either all sacrilegious and heretical and we can throw out the entire Bible (and this thread with it) or they are true and correct exactly as written. Jesus is God.

Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is done through another, it means another did it.

 

[keiw]

No they don't.



Is that what they get you to think?

2 teachings from Jesus proves who is who
John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ.)--teaching any other God calls Jesus a liar
Matt 6:33- Keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his ( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)

1+1=2, but not in trinity religions.

 

[Our Lord's God]

2 teachings from Jesus proves who is who
John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ.)--teaching any other God calls Jesus a liar
Matt 6:33- Keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his ( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)

1+1=2, but not in trinity religions.

That's nice but it changes the subject.

 

[Josheb]

Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is done through another, it means another did it.

Yep. Never said otherwise. The problem is that is not all that the English states. Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is made with another then it means another ALSO did it. Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is made by someone that person did it. Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is made in someone that person sustains it. Anyone who can understand LOGIC knows 100% false dichotomies are always and everywhere fallacious. The same applies with selective use of information.

The simple fact is when John said all things came into being through Jesus, he had also already stated Jesus was God.

 

[keiw]

That's nice but it changes the subject.

Why everytime a JW shares a truth from Jesus that doesn't fit trinity dogmas, they just throw it away? No wisdom whatsoever in that. No love of Jesus or God either.

 

[keiw]

Yep. Never said otherwise. The problem is that is not all that the English states. Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is made with another then it means another ALSO did it. Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is made by someone that person did it. Anyone who can understand ENGLISH knows 100% if something is made in someone that person sustains it. Anyone who can understand LOGIC knows 100% false dichotomies are always and everywhere fallacious. The same applies with selective use of information.

The simple fact is when John said all things came into being through Jesus, he had also already stated Jesus was God.

No John didnt. There is no capitol G God in the last line at John 1:1 in the Greek Lexicons= 100% proven fact.
As well at John 17:3--Jesus teaches--The Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--John would not contradict him. Translating error contradicted him. Why won't you believe Jesus over error?