Is Pre-mortality part of "the Gospel"?

Aaron32

Well-known member
The Book of Mormon doesn't talk about pre-mortality any more than the Bible does.

Yet, manuals such as "Gospel Principles" use pre-mortality as setting the stage for "Agency" and the need of the Atonement?

So is pre-mortality part of the gospel? If it is a "plain a precious truth" lost from the gospel, why isn't it talk about more in the Book of Mormon?

One thing I realize I forget is that pre-mortality is not a generally shared belief among Christians - if at all. It is, however, (based on Google search results) more closely associated with Buddism.
Would you call "Buddism" Christianity? If not, then maybe one can begin to understand why Christians don't include "Mormonism" in Christianity.

As a Mormon, I affirm Mormons look to Jesus Christ as their Savior, we believe he died, paid for our sins, and was resurrected in the flesh - in that way, we are Christian, according to the Biblical standard in John 4:2-3.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The Book of Mormon doesn't talk about pre-mortality any more than the Bible does.
They both talk about it. Claiming that they don't, doesn't make it so.
Yet, manuals such as "Gospel Principles" use pre-mortality as setting the stage for "Agency" and the need of the Atonement?
Now u are writing sentences with question marks at the end, so are u making a statement or asking a question?
So is pre-mortality part of the gospel?
Yes, it is.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings brotherofJared,
The Book of Mormon doesn't talk about pre-mortality any more than the Bible does.

They both talk about it. Claiming that they don't, doesn't make it so.
Could you please give the Bible reference and also the reference in the Book of Mormon. I assume that Aaron32 uses the term "Pre-mortality" to indicate the LDS view that somehow or somewhere we each existed before our conception and birth. If this is not what this term represents could you please correct me.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

CrowCross

Super Member
As a Mormon, I affirm Mormons look to Jesus Christ as their Savior, we believe he died, paid for our sins, and was resurrected in the flesh - in that way, we are Christian, according to the Biblical standard in John 4:2-3.
The question is, who actually is this Jesus you speak of?

From what I've been told and read...Jesus, the pre-incarnate Jesus, came into existence after some relationship between God the father and some heavenly mother.

The second part is ....if you want to have this mormon Jesus who they believe died, and paid for our sins...what must one do?
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
The question is, who actually is this Jesus you speak of?

From what I've been told and read...Jesus, the pre-incarnate Jesus, came into existence after some relationship between God the father and some heavenly mother.
Well, that would be a teaching originated by Brigham Young which contradicts Joseph Smith that says men exist on a self-existent principle.
This, I rely on scripture to discern between the two, which do not give any evidence of Jesus Christ's spiritual creation. And I personally believe heavenly parentage is more metaphorical than literal.
The second part is ....if you want to have this mormon Jesus who they believe died, and paid for our sins...what must one do?
"follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism" (2 Ne 31:13)
Then follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost (see 2 Ne 31-32)
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Well, that would be a teaching originated by Brigham Young which contradicts Joseph Smith that says men exist on a self-existent principle.
This, I rely on scripture to discern between the two, which do not give any evidence of Jesus Christ's spiritual creation. And I personally believe heavenly parentage is more metaphorical than literal.
This would then tell me if Bringham Young contradicted Joey Smith....then none of what BY said can be trusted.

So, you mentioned "more metaphorical than literal.".....Could you explain the metaphoric reasoning?
"follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism" (2 Ne 31:13)
Then follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost (see 2 Ne 31-32)
Here's where I and other Christians have major problems with you mormons. You mentioned "are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism" (a quote from a non biblical source)...then the LDS's own web-sites tell us the baptism must be performed by a mormon priest in order for it to count. In other words, if you are not a mormon you can't be saved.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
This would then tell me if Bringham Young contradicted Joey Smith....then none of what BY said can be trusted.
All or nothing fallacy.
Moreover, I don't appeal to authority, nor trust in the arm of the flesh. I believe based on what the Holy Ghost, aligned with the scriptures, teach me.
So, you mentioned "more metaphorical than literal.".....Could you explain the metaphoric reasoning?
According to the Bible, Satan can be our Father, (John 8:44) and according to the Book of Mormon, Jesus can be our Father. (Mosiah 5:7)
The statement that "we are children of God" from a native sense (not talking adoption) means we are of the same physical nature of God, being eternal spirits at our core. I recognize I am unique in this belief, and I don't speak for my Church.
Here's where I and other Christians have major problems with you mormons. You mentioned "are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism" (a quote from a non biblical source)...then the LDS's own web-sites tell us the baptism must be performed by a mormon priest in order for it to count. In other words, if you are not a mormon you can't be saved.
Well, I think terminology and meaning really complicated things. Most Mormons cant distinguish justification from sanctification in my experience.
I use the term "salvation" to mean justification. We are saved from our sins. Everyone who accepts Jesus Christ, valiant or not in their testimony will receive Terrestrial Glory. (D&C 76:79)

I do agree the gospel blesses everyone, including radical transformation, I do believe there is also a formal church. (Eph 4:4-5)
Many are able to use Christ's name, though they are not technically disciples. (Mark 9:38-40) Yet, Jesus said that the thing to rejoice in is not having access to God's power, but rather rejoice that your name is written in heaven. (Luke 10:19-20) There is only one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism (Eph 4:5)
 

CrowCross

Super Member
All or nothing fallacy.
Moreover, I don't appeal to authority, nor trust in the arm of the flesh. I believe based on what the Holy Ghost, aligned with the scriptures, teach me.

According to the Bible, Satan can be our Father, (John 8:44) and according to the Book of Mormon, Jesus can be our Father. (Mosiah 5:7)
The statement that "we are children of God" from a native sense (not talking adoption) means we are of the same physical nature of God, being eternal spirits at our core. I recognize I am unique in this belief, and I don't speak for my Church.

Well, I think terminology and meaning really complicated things. Most Mormons cant distinguish justification from sanctification in my experience.
I use the term "salvation" to mean justification. We are saved from our sins. Everyone who accepts Jesus Christ, valiant or not in their testimony will receive Terrestrial Glory. (D&C 76:79)

I do agree the gospel blesses everyone, including radical transformation, I do believe there is also a formal church. (Eph 4:4-5)
Many are able to use Christ's name, though they are not technically disciples. (Mark 9:38-40) Yet, Jesus said that the thing to rejoice in is not having access to God's power, but rather rejoice that your name is written in heaven. (Luke 10:19-20) There is only one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism (Eph 4:5)
To be honest it sounds as if your piggy backing your religion on "Jesus". In reality the question is...what Jesus?
 

Elijah the Tishbite

Active member
The Book of Mormon doesn't talk about pre-mortality any more than the Bible does.

Yet, manuals such as "Gospel Principles" use pre-mortality as setting the stage for "Agency" and the need of the Atonement?

So is pre-mortality part of the gospel? If it is a "plain a precious truth" lost from the gospel, why isn't it talk about more in the Book of Mormon?

According to Russell M Nelson the Book of Mormon clarifies the pre-existence
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...t-would-your-life-be-like-without-it?lang=eng

The Book of Mormon clarifies understanding about:

  • Our premortal existence.
Looks like Aaron32 is wrong or Russell M Nelson is a liar
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
Greetings brotherofJared,



Could you please give the Bible reference and also the reference in the Book of Mormon. I assume that Aaron32 uses the term "Pre-mortality" to indicate the LDS view that somehow or somewhere we each existed before our conception and birth. If this is not what this term represents could you please correct me.

Kind regards
Trevor
Eph 1:3-4 "blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,"

Alma 13:3 "And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God,"

Job 38:4-7
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Let me know if I need to connect the dots for you.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
From what I've been told and read...Jesus, the pre-incarnate Jesus, came into existence after some relationship between God the father and some heavenly mother.
You were told wrong. I can't say anything about your reading but I don't believe that came from us.
The second part is ....if you want to have this mormon Jesus who they believe died, and paid for our sins...what must one do?
Follow Him.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
This would then tell me if Bringham Young contradicted Joey Smith....then none of what BY said can be trusted.
There is no contradiction between the two. There is a misunderstanding on our part and the church has chosen for the time being, not to elaborate on our misunderstanding.
So, you mentioned "more metaphorical than literal.".....Could you explain the metaphoric reasoning?
You don't know what a metaphor is?
Here's where I and other Christians have major problems with you mormons. You mentioned "are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism" (a quote from a non biblical source)...then the LDS's own web-sites tell us the baptism must be performed by a mormon priest in order for it to count. In other words, if you are not a mormon you can't be saved.
We have that covered and you know it.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
The Book of Mormon doesn't talk about pre-mortality any more than the Bible does.

Yet, manuals such as "Gospel Principles" use pre-mortality as setting the stage for "Agency" and the need of the Atonement?

So is pre-mortality part of the gospel? If it is a "plain a precious truth" lost from the gospel, why isn't it talk about more in the Book of Mormon?

One thing I realize I forget is that pre-mortality is not a generally shared belief among Christians - if at all. It is, however, (based on Google search results) more closely associated with Buddism.
Would you call "Buddism" Christianity? If not, then maybe one can begin to understand why Christians don't include "Mormonism" in Christianity.

As a Mormon, I affirm Mormons look to Jesus Christ as their Savior, we believe he died, paid for our sins, and was resurrected in the flesh - in that way, we are Christian, according to the Biblical standard in John 4:2-3.

This is the rub .....

Pre-mortality ..... and even mortality ....... and even immortality.

And yet the conversion.

What does that mean in the Mormon vernacular.
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again brotherofJared,
Eph 1:3-4 "blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,"

Alma 13:3 "And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God,"
I suggest that the concept of God's foreknowledge is applicable to Ephesian 1:3-4 and even stated in your Alma 13:3.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

The Prophet

Active member
Greetings again brotherofJared,

I suggest that the concept of God's foreknowledge is applicable to Ephesian 1:3-4 and even stated in your Alma 13:3.

Kind regards
Trevor
foreknowledge is future knowledge and previous knowledge would be more inline with the pre-existence if it was not a myth
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Greetings again brotherofJared,

I suggest that the concept of God's foreknowledge is applicable to Ephesian 1:3-4 and even stated in your Alma 13:3.

Kind regards
Trevor
Suggest whatever you want. It's not about the foreknowledge of God that my point is being made. It is about the being called and prepared. One cannot call something that doesn't exist, nor can he prepare something that doesn't exist. These were both called and prepared before the world was created, so they must have existed. In fact, we all existed before the world was created.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again brotherofJared,
It is about the being called and prepared. One cannot call something that doesn't exist, nor can he prepare something that doesn't exist. These were both called and prepared before the world was created, so they must have existed. In fact, we all existed before the world was created.
I appreciate your perspective but I consider that this is speaking about God's foreknowledge. One passage that I am interested in is the following:
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Here is a Psalm of David that speaks about a certain Son of Man who was made a little lower than the angels, and then crowned with glory and honour, given dominion and all things have been put under his feet. This is all written in the past tense, as if it had already occurred, but when David spoke and wrote these words it was still future. As far as we are concerned, only part of this has been fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected and glorified. God who knows all things could write as if it was already fulfilled because of his foreknowledge, that Jesus would be born, he would not yield to sin, he would honour His Father by being obedient to death on the cross.

Now I am different to most "Christians" and Mormons as I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus. I read or heard that Augustine accepted the pre-existence of Jesus, but for some considerable time he was undecided. Also I do not believe in immortal souls, as I believe that humans are conceived and born, and that as a result of Adam's sin man is mortal and will return to the dust Genesis 3:19. After this the faithful wait for the resurrection when Jesus returns to establish his Kingdom on the earth centred in Jerusalem Daniel 12:2-3, Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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