Is Pre-mortality part of "the Gospel"?

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7,
Only He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. From His mortal mother, Mary, He inherited the ability to die. From His immortal Father, He inherited the power to overcome death. He declared, “As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).
The One God, Yahweh, God the Father raised the human Jesus, the Son of God from the dead.
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 17:30–31 (KJV): 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

On the Day of Pentecost David had not been raised from the dead, nor was his immortal soul elsewhere, but he was both dead and buried. He was "asleep" in the dust of the earth.

Through His death and Resurrection, He overcame physical death for us all.
All that hear the Gospel can avail the salvation through Jesus which will result in their resurrection. Most will die and remain dead as only few are saved.

Looking at the LDS Article "Atonement of Jesus Christ":
As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.
I disagree with "to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins". Yes, Jesus did suffer as a result of sin, but "suffer the penalty for sins" speaks of the theory of substitution, while I believe his sacrifice was as our representative. Jesus as a human descendant from Adam and Eve partook of Adam's fallen nature, and was subject to death. He voluntarily submitted to suffering and death acknowledging the Justice of God in requiring this, but because he had done no sin, and because of God's love of His Son and His fellowship with His Son, and the plea of Jesus to save him from death, the grave could not hold him, and in God's mercy God raised him from the dead and gave him everlasting life. His body was not allowed to see corruption and return to the dust. By this means the sentence upon Adam and his descendants to return to the dust was halted and reversed in Jesus. All the faithful who have an affectionate belief in the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and identify with Jesus in his death and resurrection by water baptism will be forgiven of their sins, and like Abraham they are thus justified by faith, and by this means thus receive forgiveness of their sins.

I disagree that "all people will be resurrected", as the faithful will be resurrected and given everlasting life, and also some of the wicked will be raised and rejected. Many will simply suffer the penalty of sin and will die and return to the dust and remain in the grave forever.

LDS Article "Atonement of Jesus Christ":
Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5-10; Helaman 14:15-17). Through the Savior’s gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.
No, refer above as only the faithful will receive everlasting life.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
Back to this again are we?
You haven't answered the question.
I'm promoting Jesus Christ as our Savior. It's only through him we receive salvation.
That still doesn't answer my question.
Only through his merits we receive his grace
That is not in dispute here.
It's only through faith we receive that grace, and works are evidence of that faith.
Fine. But my question is how important are works to our salvation?
I'm going to just repeat these principles, and you can draw your own conclusions on how important works are.
According to King Benjamin, we can't say ought of ourselves and we're unprofitable servants.
You can repeat those principles as often as you like. It's still not answering the question I asked.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Sure there is, there's faith in another gospel or a dead faith
You're going to need to explain this tripe. What is another gospel? Can dead Faith save you? Again my question how important is work to our salvation?
Nope. That's faith in works, not faith in Jesus Christ. It saves nothing.
How are you drawing that conclusion? That that's faith in works? Do you think that if someone agrees to have you say a prayer for them that that is somehow Faith in works? Why even bother to pray? Wouldn't that be faith in works? Wasn't the woman who washed the savior's feet with her tears exercising faith in works? How can you see one as being a faith in Christ and the other one is being faith in works? Doesn't even make any sense.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
So, basically what you're saying here is, Jesus didn't need to fulfill the law, we could have kept the lower law just as well. Just have faith in God, any god will do
So basically you're just bloviating again. Just abstract comments that have absolutely no relationship to the conversation whatsoever just blurred out whatever happens to come to your mind.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Salvation is offered through the grace of Jesus Christ, by his merits alone. Even after all we can do, we are only saved by grace. WE access that grace through faith, works are evidence of that faith. Given this information, I will let you draw your own conclusion of how important works are, but I will clarify that our salvation is not based on our works.
That's still not the answer to my question.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
You haven't answered the question.

That still doesn't answer my question.

That is not in dispute here.

Fine. But my question is how important are works to our salvation?

You can repeat those principles as often as you like. It's still not answering the question I asked.
I don't know what the answer is to your question. Only God knows the value of our works. You're just going to have to learn to live with that.

Thankfully, I don't have to worry about the answer. My faith in the grace of the Savior takes care of my salvation.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
You're going to need to explain this tripe.
You said: "Work may be incidental to faith and I'll accept that, but if there is no work, there is no faith."
My response means "Yes. There is faith if there is no works, just not faith in the gospel Jesus taught or faith in the Living God." Everyone has faith in something.
What is another gospel?
A "works based salvation" the very gospel Paul preached against.
Can dead Faith save you?
A faith not centered in Jesus Christ will not save you.
Again my question how important is work to our salvation?
I've clearly gave you the answer by now, in a myriad of ways. If you didn't see it, you don't want to hear my answer. Stop asking.
How are you drawing that conclusion? That that's faith in works? Do you think that if someone agrees to have you say a prayer for them that that is somehow Faith in works? Why even bother to pray? Wouldn't that be faith in works? Wasn't the woman who washed the savior's feet with her tears exercising faith in works? How can you see one as being a faith in Christ and the other one is being faith in works? Doesn't even make any sense.
"Faith in works" means "faith in the Law" which means faith in "if I do these works, according to the law, I have salvation". The lie is thinking we can achieve perfection, or that we are somehow perfect. If we think we are without sin, the truth is not in us. You're error occured in the last line saying "That is saving faith, that is living faith but it is only so because you did something." A living faith accepts our imperfections and trusts in the Savior's redeeming grace despite our best efforts.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I don't know what the answer is to your question.
Well, that's a problem. Why are you here arguing if you don't know what the answer is?
Only God knows the value of our works.
Then we, of all people, are hopelessly lost. If we don't know how important they are, why bother doing any works? With that kind of answer, then a person can be justified is saying that they are not important at all, and many evangelicals do.
You're just going to have to learn to live with that.
No. You're going to have to live with that. I know how important they are and I've stated their importance a number of times. There's even a phrase that goes with it. It's called works-based salvation. If we don't do the work, we can't be saved. That's how important they are.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
You said: "Work may be incidental to faith and I'll accept that, but if there is no work, there is no faith."
My response means "Yes. There is faith if there is no works, just not faith in the gospel Jesus taught or faith in the Living God." Everyone has faith in something.
That is simply a false statement. None of what you said makes any sense.
A "works based salvation" the very gospel Paul preached against.
Paul preached against no such thing. He specifically taught that there are good works that were prepared for us to walk in. In context, if one is not walking in those good works, then that person is not born of Christ. From that, I draw the conclusion that if one is not born of Christ unto good works, then they cannot be saved.

Unfortunately, you are buying into the evangelical idea of faith alone and that does not exist, specifically, faith without works. They and you are wrong and the church doesn't teach anything like that and the Bible doesn't teach anything like that.
A faith not centered in Jesus Christ will not save you.
That is correct. Therefore, works are so important to our salvation that without them, we cannot be saved because without works, faith is dead. PERIOD.
I've clearly gave you the answer by now
yes. Your answer was that you don't know, only God knows. You are wrong, but I will accept that answer.
"Faith in works" means "faith in the Law" which means faith in "if I do these works, according to the law, I have salvation".
Yet the works are still necessary, either way. What's the difference... that was my question. How are you separating the works one does because they have faith in Jesus and the works that someone does just because? As I posted just a few minutes ago, the idea that a person who keeps all of God's commandments (at least the latter 5 - not knowing God, how can they love him or worship him?) still can't be saved is ludicrous. That outright condemns billions of people, 10s of billions, only because they never heard of God or Christ. Is that fair? Is that justice?

No, trying to draw a line between which works count and which don't isn't right. I believe you all just make that up lamely out of a few misinterpreted scriptures. I reject that notion. Cornelious is an excellent example of good works that were acceptable to God before he even know God. And if he didn't know God, how could he have faith in Him?
The lie is thinking we can achieve perfection, or that we are somehow perfect.
Well, that's a lie I never told. It's just another strawman.
If we think we are without sin, the truth is not in us.
Totally irrelevant. Perfection or being without sin is not an argument I introduced. Again, it's just a strawman.
You're error occured in the last line saying "That is saving faith, that is living faith but it is only so because you did something."
Nope. no error at all and it's totally unrelated to perfection. You're off the reservation. In fact, your argument isn't even on the planet.
A living faith accepts our imperfections and trusts in the Savior's redeeming grace despite our best efforts.
blah blah blah, bloviation again. I should have seen that coming when you started with this perfection thing. Did you cry when you said those beautifully nonsensical words?

Scratch the whole perfection thing, it has no part in this discussion. You said, that those who have living faith will keep the commandments. Again, I ask, if the person doesn't keep the commandments, can he have a living faith? The correct answer is no, but I don't think you'll answer it. You'll do everything but answer it. But it's logical. If a is c when it has b. then if it doesn't have b, then a isn't c. The logic fails. logically, that is a and b is c. Without either a or b, c cannot exist. a is faith and c is living faith, b is keeping the commandments.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Well, that's a problem.
When you become God, or a General Authority, that's when I'll start caring about your opinion.
Why are you here arguing if you don't know what the answer is?
It's a crappy question, with no good answer. This is what I've been telling you.
Then we, of all people, are hopelessly lost. If we don't know how important they are, why bother doing any works? With that kind of answer, then a person can be justified is saying that they are not important at all, and many evangelicals do.
I guess we'll need to trust in God and judge us based on the intents of our hearts then.
No. You're going to have to live with that. I know how important they are and I've stated their importance a number of times. There's even a phrase that goes with it. It's called works-based salvation. If we don't do the work, we can't be saved. That's how important they are.
Ok. You keep going with that. When you find a quote from the church agreeing with you in that phraseology, let me know.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
When you become God, or a General Authority, that's when I'll start caring about your opinion.
Your choice. I didn't ask you to argue with me.
It's a crappy question, with no good answer. This is what I've been telling you.
Nah. You know the answer, you just don't want to answer it because it will destroy your narrative.
I guess we'll need to trust in God and judge us based on the intents of our hearts then.
I guess so. Good luck.
Ok. You keep going with that.
(y)
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7,

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father raised the human Jesus, the Son of God from the dead.
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 17:30–31 (KJV): 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

On the Day of Pentecost David had not been raised from the dead, nor was his immortal soul elsewhere, but he was both dead and buried. He was "asleep" in the dust of the earth.


All that hear the Gospel can avail the salvation through Jesus which will result in their resurrection. Most will die and remain dead as only few are saved.

Looking at the LDS Article "Atonement of Jesus Christ":
As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.
I disagree with "to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins". Yes, Jesus did suffer as a result of sin, but "suffer the penalty for sins" speaks of the theory of substitution, while I believe his sacrifice was as our representative. Jesus as a human descendant from Adam and Eve partook of Adam's fallen nature, and was subject to death. He voluntarily submitted to suffering and death acknowledging the Justice of God in requiring this, but because he had done no sin, and because of God's love of His Son and His fellowship with His Son, and the plea of Jesus to save him from death, the grave could not hold him, and in God's mercy God raised him from the dead and gave him everlasting life. His body was not allowed to see corruption and return to the dust. By this means the sentence upon Adam and his descendants to return to the dust was halted and reversed in Jesus. All the faithful who have an affectionate belief in the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and identify with Jesus in his death and resurrection by water baptism will be forgiven of their sins, and like Abraham they are thus justified by faith, and by this means thus receive forgiveness of their sins.

I disagree that "all people will be resurrected", as the faithful will be resurrected and given everlasting life, and also some of the wicked will be raised and rejected. Many will simply suffer the penalty of sin and will die and return to the dust and remain in the grave forever.

LDS Article "Atonement of Jesus Christ":
Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5-10; Helaman 14:15-17). Through the Savior’s gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.
No, refer above as only the faithful will receive everlasting life.

Kind regards
Trevor

Notice that it does not say return to the dust, only everlasting contempt...

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:15

Having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7,
Notice that it does not say return to the dust, only everlasting contempt..
Yes, I understand the word "everlasting" is "Olahm" and speaks of the Age to Come, the Hidden Period. They will be raised but will be judged unworthy to receive the Life granted to the faithful, and they will be cast out into the outer darkness and not fellowship the blessings of the Kingdom that is being established at Jerusalem, and they suffer for a while and then be subjects of the second death and return to the dust. They will be held in contempt, especially at the beginning of the Age because this class will be those responsible to judgement. Responsibility to judgement is to those who have heard the Gospel and having knowledge of this turn their backs on it and live a life unworthy of the calling. These are the "unjust" and they will not attain to the life of the Age to Come. They will die again.
John 12:42-48 (KJV): 42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Psalm 49: 12-20 (KJV): 12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approveb their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. 16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased; 17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. 18 Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself. 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Isaiah 26:12-14, (KJV): 12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Genesis 3:19 clearly defines that man is mortal, and the death and resurrection of Christ to immortality was what was accomplished in him and for him. The benefit of his overcoming sin and death and opening the way to immortality is only bestowed upon those that have in this present life had an affectionate belief of the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and have thus been identified with his death and resurrection by baptism in water and lived the crucified and resurrected life.
Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV): Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

2 Timothy 1: (KJV): 7-10 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Kind regards
Trevor
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7,

Yes, I understand the word "everlasting" is "Olahm" and speaks of the Age to Come, the Hidden Period. They will be raised but will be judged unworthy to receive the Life granted to the faithful, and they will be cast out into the outer darkness and not fellowship the blessings of the Kingdom that is being established at Jerusalem, and they suffer for a while and then be subjects of the second death and return to the dust. They will be held in contempt, especially at the beginning of the Age because this class will be those responsible to judgement. Responsibility to judgement is to those who have heard the Gospel and having knowledge of this turn their backs on it and live a life unworthy of the calling. These are the "unjust" and they will not attain to the life of the Age to Come. They will die again.
John 12:42-48 (KJV): 42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Psalm 49: 12-20 (KJV): 12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approveb their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. 16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased; 17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. 18 Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself. 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Isaiah 26:12-14, (KJV): 12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Genesis 3:19 clearly defines that man is mortal, and the death and resurrection of Christ to immortality was what was accomplished in him and for him. The benefit of his overcoming sin and death and opening the way to immortality is only bestowed upon those that have in this present life had an affectionate belief of the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and have thus been identified with his death and resurrection by baptism in water and lived the crucified and resurrected life.
Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV): Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

2 Timothy 1: (KJV): 7-10 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Kind regards
Trevor
Okay, so they live or are resurrected, judged and then return to the dust... do I have that right?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yes, I understand the word "everlasting" is "Olahm" and speaks of the Age to Come, the Hidden Period.
These are strange words. Meaningless. "Everlasting" has meaning. If you think the translators made a mistake, Please contact them and have them correct it. Until then, the English translation is the one we'll use.
They will be raised but will be judged unworthy to receive the Life granted to the faithful
No one has questioned that. I hope this isn't going to be part of your argument. So far, there hasn't even been one. You're just bloviating.
they will be cast out into the outer darkness and not fellowship the blessings of the Kingdom
Uh huh. Again, no one is questioning that.
they suffer for a while and then be subjects of the second death and return to the dust
Bzzzzt. Wrong. Where in all your bloviating do you think you've established that point. Daniel doesn't say they will return to the dust. Nothing in the scriptures that I've seen so far indicates that's what the second death is. Personally, I think it's one of those mysteries that you guys are guessing what it is.
They will be held in contempt
Uh huh. Back to bloviating.
especially at the beginning of the Age because this class will be those responsible to judgement.
Ok. Everyone will be judged and the beginning of the age started a long time ago. Like, when Adam became mortal.

"this class" hahahahaha
Responsibility to judgement is to those who have heard the Gospel and having knowledge of this turn their backs on it and live a life unworthy of the calling.
Well, I'm glad we know what that phrase means. I gotta wonder how many other classes there are. When does one know they've turned their "backs on it"? What does this mean to those who were once disobedient in the days of Noah? Why did Christ visit them? Apparently, according to Peter, they had an opportunity for salvation. Considering that they were so wicked that God killed them all for their disobedience. So, how does that fit into your little theory?

I disagree with your supposition. Apparently, you expect us to believe this because you bloviated a lot? Is that it?

I also see within this, and perhaps this is an improvement over some other arguments, at least you recognize that once saved always saved is false doctrine. Can I ask you why you are posting in this forum?
These are the "unjust"
And we're supposed to believe that because you say so?
they will not attain to the life of the Age to Come.
So, in your vernacular, "Age to Come" means everlasting. Translating your sentence into normal English, you're saying, "they will not attain to everlasting life?"

False. Christ's atonement was for all mankind. Every single person who has ever lived on this earth or who will live will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected - NEVER TO DIE AGAIN. Regardless of one's sins, every single person will receive everlasting life (or the life of the Age to Come). That is the free gift.
John 12:42-48 (KJV): 42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Very lovely highlighting, but not one word of this supports your assertion.

I assume you think this, "those who have heard the Gospel and having knowledge of this turn their backs on it" applies to the emphasized text in your verse. And you think that the result will be, "they will not attain to the life of the Age to Come. They will die again." But nothing in that verse even remotely makes that claim. You do, but that passage doesn't.
Psalm 49: 12-20 (KJV): 12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. 16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased; 17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. 18 Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself. 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
Again, a lot of babble without comprehension. Nothing here supports your supposition. In another English translation (ESV) They use the word "pomp" in the place of "honour". It's probably a better word because it fits the context. This simply states that a man's riches and his life's belongings will perish when he dies. It's not saying he will perish, but that he lives like a beast who lives only to satisfy his appetite.

You probably think verse 14 supports your argument, but nowhere in there does it speak of a second death nor does it speak being separated from their body after the resurrection. Everyone is going to end up in the grave. There was sufficient argument among the Jews to make a whole group of them reject the idea of a physical resurrection. But we know better, right?
Isaiah 26:12-14, (KJV): 12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Again, another passage that has nothing to do with your assertion. The above-highlighted passage, you think supports your assertion, but again, this is only in relation to the living. Have you forgotten the New Testament witness? By one man all will die and by one man will all be made alive again. Where do you see the second death mentioned even once in that passage? It's not there.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
And this one does say anything about death, much less a second death.
Genesis 3:19 clearly defines that man is mortal
So? That's not an argument. I think it's pretty obvious that man is mortal. It's not like we need Gen 3:19 to prove that.
and the death and resurrection of Christ to immortality was what was accomplished in him and for him.
Nah. Jesus didn't need to die, so it wasn't for Him. It was for us.
The benefit of his overcoming sin and death and opening the way to immortality is only bestowed upon those that have in this present life had an affectionate belief of the Gospel
Where would you get an idea like that? Hopefully, you'll explain.
and Name and have thus been identified with his death and resurrection by baptism in water and lived the crucified and resurrected life.
More bloviation. I'm not even sure why you babble on. The whole argument can be shorted to this one phrase, "immortality is only bestowed upon those that believe the Gospel". So far, NOTHING you've said supports that assertion. Nothing you've said supports the assertion about the second death.

But, I fear I've run out of room. I'll pick up the remaining in my next post.

It would really be helpful if our critics didn't spend so much time buffing up their own self-importance and just get down to the point of the argument.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again brotherofJared,
These are strange words. Meaningless. "Everlasting" has meaning. If you think the translators made a mistake, Please contact them and have them correct it. Until then, the English translation is the one we'll use.
Perhaps you do not have reference books to check the meaning of words. and I checked three which agree, and after an extensive article the following is one of the concluding paragraphs from TWOT:
The LXX generally translates ʿōlām by aiōn which has essentially the same range of meaning. That neither the Hebrew nor the Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that sometimes it is thought desirable to repeat the word, not merely saying “forever,” but “forever and ever.”
Another expositor has the following in a very long article on the subject:
The Hebrew and Chaldee nouns are derived from the verb ahlam, “to hide, to conceal.” Hence an Olahm, in relation to time is a period hidden or concealed; hidden in the past, or concealed in the future. In prophecy, it designates absolutely a certain period to exist; but without defining its beginning or ending.
Nothing in the scriptures that I've seen so far indicates that's what the second death is. Personally, I think it's one of those mysteries that you guys are guessing what it is.
I understand death is death, not a mystery. The second death will be experienced by a class of people who have experienced the first death.
What does this mean to those who were once disobedient in the days of Noah?
I discussed this with Richard7.
Can I ask you why you are posting in this forum?
The title of this thread attracted my attention after talking to Aaron32 on another thread which was not in the Mormon category. The Mormon sub-forum is not supplied by CARM so that you can advertise and defend your theology. It is supplied so that the Mormon teachings can be discussed and the estimation of both my and your theology is that we belong to "Cults/Groups" and most probably they consider that we are "Cults".
Christ's atonement was for all mankind. Every single person who has ever lived on this earth or who will live will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected - NEVER TO DIE AGAIN.
Good theory, but I believe in death Genesis 3:19 and the second death for the rejected class raised for judgement Daniel 12:2-3.
So? That's not an argument. I think it's pretty obvious that man is mortal. It's not like we need Gen 3:19 to prove that.
Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
It does not say that your body is mortal and your soul is immortal, and your body will return to dust and your immortal soul will go to one of the three Mormon heavens.
Nah. Jesus didn't need to die, so it wasn't for Him. It was for us.
Jesus was a descendant of Adam. Also Jesus submitted to the will of the Father.
More bloviation. I'm not even sure why you babble on.
Seems to be your favourite word and now you add "babble". This does not add weight to your post, but is part of your bluff and bluster method. I could not find this word in my dictionary, but it is supplied on the internet definitions. It reminded me of someone blowing their own trumpet, similar to the Mormon symbol.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I found this old thread from 'way back with these new boards first came up, where we compared the BoM with the Bible, and some other stuff:


it is too old to be bumped, but I thought I would post the link, anyway, to those who are interested.
 
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