Is Pre-mortality part of "the Gospel"?

[CrowCross]

No where in our APPROVED Doctrine or APPROVED Scriptures do we teach anything else.... Mary was a virgin, period...

It's difficult to tell just what is approved and what isn't approved.
for example...

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Brigham Young also said, “Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

 

[SeventhDay]

Sorry, is that a teaching of your church and if so where can we find the scripture that Adam was already in death... hmm

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

If death came by man then man was in the death condition which is subject to death even before he transgressed the law but when he did he died! God bless you.

 

[SeventhDay]

Interesting concept....can you show this to be true using the bible?

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

If death came by man then man was in the death condition which is subject to death even before he transgressed the law but when he did he died! God bless you.

 

[CrowCross]

If death came by man then man was in the death condition which is subject to death even before he transgressed the law but when he did he died! God bless you.

Basically if Adam didn't sin....he would be alive today.

 

[SeventhDay]

Basically if Adam didn't sin....he would be alive today.

Adam would have sinned because he did sin and Adam being alive today with out a Savior then it is best he remains dead!

 

[brotherofJared]

God put the forbidden fruit in the garden to serve a purpose well knowing Adam would eat of it.

I agree. But what if he never ate that fruit? Would he still be in the garden today or would he be dead?

This was a soulical separation not a spiritual one.

I couldn't find that word in the dictionary. I don't know how you define soul, but I believe they were both physically and spiritually separated from God the Father. Jesus, we weren't separated from, but God the Father, we are and have been.

God's intention for a new Adam was as a spiritual creation and that would happen through Jesus atonement.

Yea. none of that statement makes sense either. Adam is dead when Jesus atoned for his sins. What was the spiritual creation?

BY the way Adam did die because he was already in a death condition before he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Again, so you think that Adam would have died if he never ate the fruit?

It is just that before the Law Adam was not held accountable for his actions.

And yet, he was held accountable for his actions. *boggle*

 

[brotherofJared]

Sorry, is that a teaching of your church and if so where can we find the scripture that Adam was already in death... hmm

I remember Seventhday, but I can't remember what his theology was. I don't think it's Christian.

 

[CrowCross]

Adam would have sinned because he did sin and Adam being alive today with out a Savior then it is best he remains dead!

I understand Adam sinned...But...if Adam choose obedience and didn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....he wouldn't have died. The repercussions of original sin would not have been established.

Then again as we all know, Adam fell.

 

[Richard7]

It's difficult to tell just what is approved and what isn't approved.
for example...

Only critics and anti's have a problem with approved or not approved....as a Church the doctrine is always approved by common consent.

D&C 28:13 explains “all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith."

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Brigham Young also said, “Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

 

[SeventhDay]

I understand Adam sinned...But...if Adam choose obedience and didn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....he wouldn't have died. The repercussions of original sin would not have been established.

Then again as we all know, Adam fell.

Well, to be frank I really do not know. God bless you.

 

[Richard7]

I

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Do you understand the difference between conception, pregnancy, impregnation. etc. and Birth? what is a natural action? Isn't it also common for female individuals to be inseminated? and also begotten meaning bring into existence?

Brigham Young also said, “Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

Exactly, so what did he mean? Being born of God, or begotten of God...

Ezra Taft Benson taught:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father." (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4)

Sired: be the Father of...

 

[Richard7]

If death came by man then man was in the death condition which is subject to death even before he transgressed the law but when he did he died! God bless you.

For since by man came death, .... by man came sin, and sin became death...
Romans 5:12, “through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,

Its pretty plain that the first man and women were told not to eat of the tree of good and evil...both sinned against God and forced out of Eden and commanded to live in the earth... hence sin and death entered into the world...

 

[Richard7]

I understand Adam sinned...But...if Adam choose obedience and didn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....he wouldn't have died. The repercussions of original sin would not have been established.

Then again as we all know, Adam fell.

Very good...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings SeventhDay,

Adam was mortal before he sinned and carnal too.
If God had made the first Adam immortal then he would still be immortal! God bless you.

I suggest that Adam was neither mortal (subject to death and dying) or immortal. He had the potential to be either. If he was obedient he would continue to live, and we could suppose that after a period of probation and growing to full spiritual maturity he would be granted the privilege to eat of the Tree of Life in the Garden and then live for ever, become immortal. But he sinned and was sentenced to return to the dust (no immortal souls) and cast out of the Garden also so that he could not seize the fruit of the Tree of Life and live for ever.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

Exactly, so what did he mean? Being born of God, or begotten of God...

Do you know what begotten means? I do. The mormons only think begotten means a physical birth.

 

[CrowCross]

Greetings SeventhDay,

I suggest that Adam was neither mortal (subject to death and dying) or immortal. He had the potential to be either. If he was obedient he would continue to live, and we could suppose that after a period of probation and growing to full spiritual maturity he would be granted the privilege to eat of the Tree of Life in the Garden and then live for ever, become immortal. But he sinned and was sentenced to return to the dust (no immortal souls) and cast out of the Garden also so that he could not seize the fruit of the Tree of Life and live for ever.

Kind regards
Trevor

Do you think if Adam didn't fall by eating the forbidden fruit.....that God would have eventually eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

(little thought that pop into your mind that you've really never thought about)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings CrowCross,

Do you think if Adam didn't fall by eating the forbidden fruit.....that God would have eventually eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

You have either made a mistake in writing this, or it is a nonsense question.

(little thought that pop into your mind that you've really never thought about)

It does not pop into my mind, even if you state this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brotherofJared]

You have either made a mistake in writing this, or it is a nonsense question.

Couple of things here. 1. The question wasn't directed at you. And 2, while the question is awkward, the nonsense of the question isn't much different than your questions. He was addressing @SeventhDay who is not a Mormon. He's not even a Christian from what I can tell. But @CrowCross , as I see it, was asking if God would have given the fruit to Adam eventually according to @SeventhDay 's view.

I'm not sure. But from my perspective, the answer to that question is no. Adam had to disobey God as well. Adam had to make the choice, it wasn't something that God was going to decide for Adam. I agree, the tree was placed there for Adam to eat it. The consequences for eating were spelled out and he was forbidden to eat it as would any good parent who doesn't want their children to die. So commanding him not to eat it was for Adam's well-being, but if Adam wanted to progress, advance, he needed to leave the garden. Eve, being the mother of all living became mortal first and then brought Adam into mortality. Adam recognized that without Eve, he would be damned.

 

[brotherofJared]

Do you know what begotten means? I do

Maybe you can tell us instead of playing games.

The mormons only think begotten means a physical birth.

False, but you can't deny that begotten does mean physical birth and we all know that Jesus was born physically. The question is who is Jesus' Father. @Richard7 explained what we believe. But biologically, if Mary is human and she gave birth to a human, then the Father was human also. That's a biological fact.

 

[brotherofJared]

I suggest that Adam was neither mortal (subject to death and dying) or immortal.

I would suggest that that is an outlandish suggestion. Do you have any others?

If he was obedient he would continue to live,

So, not mortal. If he continued to live, that would make him immortal. Have you ever looked up the definition?

and we could suppose that after a period of probation and growing to full spiritual maturity he would be granted the privilege to eat of the Tree of Life in the Garden

Doh. He had that privilege already.