Is Pre-mortality part of "the Gospel"?

CrowCross

Super Member
Maybe you can tell us instead of playing games.

Nice cop out...as you couldn't produce a definition...so here it is:
"pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship."

A second but similiar meaning is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind."

Pseudo-Christian cults such as the LDS want to tell us that Jesus was literally "begotten" as in “produced” or “created” by God the Father.

Mormons teach Jesus had a beginning.
False, but you can't deny that begotten does mean physical birth and we all know that Jesus was born physically. The question is who is Jesus' Father. @Richard7 explained what we believe. But biologically, if Mary is human and she gave birth to a human, then the Father was human also. That's a biological fact.
As I have said before....the Mormons believe God the Father has physical sexual relationship with Mary in which she became pregnant. Either that or he used a turkey baster.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Do you disagree with the first part which you seem to endorse in your next comment:
If he couldn't die before he ate the fruit, he wasn't mortal, but he didn't have life within himself either. I agree, he was neither like us, nor was he like God, who was a resurrected being having life within himself. I don't know that we have a word for the condition he was in. The closest word is immortal because the definition for that fits Adam's condition. Immortals are people that live forever. Since he didn't die when he ate the fruit, that means he became mortal. Thus setting the clock on the end of his life. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John the beloved, the three Nephites are all beings who returned to that condition, the same condition that Adam lived in before he ate the fruit. Their bodies ceased to decay. There was a physical change but it wasn't death nor was it a resurrection.
My understanding of immortal is "not capable of dying
Great, that's not the dictionary definition. It's good to know u have ur own vocabulary. I accept that based on that definition, Adam wasn't immortal. Now, I have to wonder what ur point is. Why is this squabble important?
I believe that eating the tree of Life would have imparted everlasting life
Obviously, u can believe whatever u want, but the fact is, the only tree he was forbidden to eat from was the tree of knowledge of good and evil.nthe tree of life was not on the do not eat list. The cherubim were not placed to guard the way until Adam was expelled from the garden.
God would not allow this, he would not allow a sinner to have everlasting life.
Yea, well, Adam was not a sinner even when he ate the fruit. Eating fruit is not a sin. Disobeying God was, however; once Eve ate the fruit and disobeyed God, she put Adam in a situation where no matter what he did it he would be disobeying God. He had to choose which commandment he was going to disobey. Timothy saw Eve as the transgressor and not Adam because she was deceived and Adam wasn't. I'm sure there is more to that, but that will do for now. Nevertheless the consequences for eating the fruit was death even if it wasn't a sin. If they are from the tree of life, the would have lived forever in their sins which would have frustrated God's plan which was to provide a period where they could prove themselves and provide a savior which would pay their for their sins, thus bringing them back into the presence of God. That was the plan from the beginning.

Funny u should say this, "he would not allow a sinner to have everlasting life" when that's exactly what God is doing.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Nice cop out...as you couldn't produce a definition...so here it is:
"pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship."

A second but similiar meaning is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind."

Pseudo-Christian cults such as the LDS want to tell us that Jesus was literally "begotten" as in “produced” or “created” by God the Father.

How did it happen? Did Mary not have a egg in her womb? and was it not fertilized with a seed ? or was it just plain magic?
Why did Christ have to come to the earth as the rest of us did, by birth. If God wanted to, could he not just have come down and taken on flesh, blood and bone? you guys amaze us....please explain as much as you can with the knowledge of the Gospel please...



Mormons teach Jesus had a beginning.
“‘And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man [not a separate man, but a complete man, which is husband and wife] in our image, after our likeness; and it was so.’ (Moses 2:26.)


As I have said before....the Mormons believe God the Father has physical sexual relationship with Mary in which she became pregnant. Either that or he used a turkey baster.
Do you think mocking is funny? Can anyone who is a virgin still be a virgin even after having physical sexual relations? not that I know of.
Artificial insemination maybe?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
How did it happen? Did Mary not have a egg in her womb? and was it not fertilized with a seed ? or was it just plain magic?
Why did Christ have to come to the earth as the rest of us did, by birth. If God wanted to, could he not just have come down and taken on flesh, blood and bone? you guys amaze us....please explain as much as you can with the knowledge of the Gospel please...




“‘And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man [not a separate man, but a complete man, which is husband and wife] in our image, after our likeness; and it was so.’ (Moses 2:26.)
The book of Moses???
Do you think mocking is funny? Can anyone who is a virgin still be a virgin even after having physical sexual relations? not that I know of.
Artificial insemination maybe?
Are you saying that after God has sex with Mary...she was no longer a virgin?
 

Richard7

Well-known member
The book of Moses???

Are you even on the same page, you stated: "Pseudo-Christian cults such as the LDS want to tell us that Jesus was literally "begotten" as in “produced” or “created” by God the Father."

Christ was already in the begging with the Father as I stated and we teach, he was born by Mary and also Fathered by God. So He, Christ, is the literal son of God in the flesh... but spiritually was always with God the Father in the beginning...


Are you saying that after God has sex with Mary...she was no longer a virgin?
Chuckle, read it again, I never claimed God had a physical sexual encounter or relation with Mary, yet he is the literal Father of Christ in the Flesh.
I don't believe you understand the meaning of a virgin... really showing your ignorance...
 

Richard7

Well-known member
The book of Moses???

Are you saying that after God has sex with Mary...she was no longer a virgin?
So give me your take on Christ virgin birth... and why was it necessary for God or the personage of Christ who is the one God according to you; needing to come into this earth by means of being born like all the rest of us... why not just take on a body of flesh and bone... answer the question I asked...
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Are you even on the same page, you stated: "Pseudo-Christian cults such as the LDS want to tell us that Jesus was literally "begotten" as in “produced” or “created” by God the Father."

Hence....you have been following a false Christ.
Christ was already in the begging with the Father as I stated and we teach, he was born by Mary and also Fathered by God. So He, Christ, is the literal son of God in the flesh... but spiritually was always with God the Father in the beginning...
According to mormon theology the pre-incarnate Jesus..the Word...had a beginning when the father had a relationship with a celestial mother....Jesus was born....the literal brother of Satan.
Chuckle, read it again, I never claimed God had a physical sexual encounter or relation with Mary, yet he is the literal Father of Christ in the Flesh.
I don't believe you understand the meaning of a virgin... really showing your ignorance...
I've noticed mormons have 2 theologies when it comes to Christ. The backroom theology they talk about while standing around the baptism pool....and the theology they post on these forums.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
So give me your take on Christ virgin birth... and why was it necessary for God or the personage of Christ who is the one God according to you; needing to come into this earth by means of being born like all the rest of us... why not just take on a body of flesh and bone... answer the question I asked...
You didn't answer my question...was Mary still a virgin...had a hymen...after being impregnated by the father?

Jesus like all of us ...was born like all the rest of us... The question is, how did mary get pregnant? From reading some of the mormon post the way Mary got pregnant was just like every other woman. A sexual act with male penetration.

Why was Jesus born a baby? One answer...he was born in meekness as one of us.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Hence....you have been following a false Christ.

According to mormon theology the pre-incarnate Jesus..the Word...had a beginning when the father had a relationship with a celestial mother....Jesus was born....the literal brother of Satan.

Chuckle, quit embarrassing yourself, your ignorance of what we teach and what you think we teach only proves you are going to the wrong sources for your information... hmm

I've noticed mormons have 2 theologies when it comes to Christ. The backroom theology they talk about while standing around the baptism pool....and the theology they post on these forums.
Yea, right.... keep guessing and speculating... I'm sure a few of your fellow Evangelicals will fall for all your fake, counterfeit and bogus claims.. especially since you never validate or provide any source material...
 

Richard7

Well-known member
You didn't answer my question...was Mary still a virgin...had a hymen...after being impregnated by the father?

Jesus like all of us ...was born like all the rest of us... The question is, how did mary get pregnant? From reading some of the mormon post the way Mary got pregnant was just like every other woman. A sexual act with male penetration.

Why was Jesus born a baby? One answer...he was born in meekness as one of us.
I will after you answer my first question... crickets so far...
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again brotherofJared,
God, who was a resurrected being having life within himself. .................. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John the beloved, the three Nephites are all beings who returned to that condition, the same condition that Adam lived in before he ate the fruit.
There are a number of things that I disagree with in your Post, for example the above. I am not interested in sorting these out because of what I state about Section 3..
I have finished reading the second section of the book by Forrest Brinkerhoff, Mormonism - a Historical and Scriptural Analysis:
Section 2 How the Church Obtains and Controls its Membership
Introduction page 40
Chapter 8 Mormonism's Appeal pages 41-43
Chapter 9 The Priesthood in the Church pages 44-52 (includes LDS documents)
Chapter 10 Methods of Control in the Church pages 53-55
Chapter 11 The Five Laws and Their Significance pages 56-58
The above is from Post #99 and in this Post I mentioned that Section 3 speaks about LDS doctrine. I have now finished reading this section.
Section 3 The Beliefs of the Mormons Compared with Bible Teachings
Introduction pages 59-60
Chapter 12 God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit pages 61-65
Chapter 13 God's Purpose with this Creation pages 66-67
Chapter 14 Baptism for the Dead pages 68-69
Chapter 15 The Devil and the Church page 70
Chapter 16 A Summary of the Beliefs of the Mormons pages 71-80
1. God 2. The Holy Trinity 3. The Holy Bible 4. The pre-existence of man 5. Ecclesiastical authority 6. Baptism 7. Virgin birth 8. "Did Christ organize a church while on earth? ...." 9. The Lord's Supper 10 The Atonement of Christ 11. Life after death 12. Vicarious work for the salvation of the dead 13. Status of non-believers in Christ 14. Miracles 15. Satan 16. Heaven and Hell 17. Is Church connection necessary for salvation? 18. Divine revelation 19. Marriage 20. The purpose of life 21. The second coming of Christ 22. The Holy Ghost 23. The resurrection of man 24. The Calling 25. The Ingathering 26. Right to Worship 27. The Law 28. The virtues.

Nearly every aspect of Chapters 12-15 and items 1-28 of Chapter 16 do not agree with Bible teaching. Some items are extremely unusual. I suggest that Mormons, if they read the Bible, would see the difference between Mormon teaching and the Bible.

The next two sections are:
Section 4 Practices of the Mormons
Introduction pages 81-82
Chapter 17 The Reason for Large Families pages 83-84
Chapter 18 The Temples pages 85-88
Chapter 19 Polygamy pages 89-95
Chapter 20 Food and Drink Customs pages 96-97
Chapter 21 Family Home Evenings page 98

Section 5 The Challenge to all Mormons
Introduction pages 99-100
Chapter 22 Appealing to the Mormon Missionary pages 101-109
Chapter 23 Speaking to the Mormons pages 110-111
Chapter 24 Basic points to Cover in Public Addresses to Mormons pages 112-116

Kind regards
Trevor
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
There are a number of things that I disagree with in your Post, for example the above. I am not interested in sorting these out because of what I state about Section 3..
No problem. I'm sure I wouldn't be interested in your sorting them out either. Just as I am not interested in your book report.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Greetings again brotherofJared,

There are a number of things that I disagree with in your Post, for example the above. I am not interested in sorting these out because of what I state about Section 3..

The above is from Post #99 and in this Post I mentioned that Section 3 speaks about LDS doctrine. I have now finished reading this section.
Section 3 The Beliefs of the Mormons Compared with Bible Teachings
Introduction pages 59-60
Chapter 12 God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit pages 61-65
Chapter 13 God's Purpose with this Creation pages 66-67
Chapter 14 Baptism for the Dead pages 68-69
Chapter 15 The Devil and the Church page 70
Chapter 16 A Summary of the Beliefs of the Mormons pages 71-80
1. God 2. The Holy Trinity 3. The Holy Bible 4. The pre-existence of man 5. Ecclesiastical authority 6. Baptism 7. Virgin birth 8. "Did Christ organize a church while on earth? ...." 9. The Lord's Supper 10 The Atonement of Christ 11. Life after death 12. Vicarious work for the salvation of the dead 13. Status of non-believers in Christ 14. Miracles 15. Satan 16. Heaven and Hell 17. Is Church connection necessary for salvation? 18. Divine revelation 19. Marriage 20. The purpose of life 21. The second coming of Christ 22. The Holy Ghost 23. The resurrection of man 24. The Calling 25. The Ingathering 26. Right to Worship 27. The Law 28. The virtues.

Nearly every aspect of Chapters 12-15 and items 1-28 of Chapter 16 do not agree with Bible teaching. Some items are extremely unusual. I suggest that Mormons, if they read the Bible, would see the difference between Mormon teaching and the Bible.

The next two sections are:
Section 4 Practices of the Mormons
Introduction pages 81-82
Chapter 17 The Reason for Large Families pages 83-84
Chapter 18 The Temples pages 85-88
Chapter 19 Polygamy pages 89-95
Chapter 20 Food and Drink Customs pages 96-97
Chapter 21 Family Home Evenings page 98

Section 5 The Challenge to all Mormons
Introduction pages 99-100
Chapter 22 Appealing to the Mormon Missionary pages 101-109
Chapter 23 Speaking to the Mormons pages 110-111
Chapter 24 Basic points to Cover in Public Addresses to Mormons pages 112-116

Kind regards
Trevor
Why would we want to discuss diverse and assorted issues involving problematic and questionable character and makeup of practices, bible comparisons and challenges to all LDS... we LDS understand scripture better than most christians out there... recent survey states the following:

Survey: LDS know more about the Bible than other Christians​

Atheists, agnostics also score well on quiz.​

John Morehead, director of the Western Institute for Intercultural Studies in Salt Lake City, had already noted religious illiteracy in the general population as well as in the evangelical community. But he did not expect Mormons to top them in their biblical fluency.
"Mormons tend to emphasize Mormon scriptures like the Book of Mormon rather than the Bible in their devotional life," Morehead said in an e-mail.
Even some LDS scholars were surprised to find Mormons at the top.

 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7,
Why would we want to discuss diverse and assorted issues involving problematic and questionable character and makeup of practices, bible comparisons and challenges to all LDS
That's fine, I was just mentioning my progress through the book. Possibly Aaron32 started this thread as a result of my question as to where pre-existence of all is mentioned in the Bible. I mentioned that my last encounter with Mormons was 30 years ago with two 20 y.o. "elders" who claimed that they pre-existed. Apart from this I was aware of a few Mormon concepts such as baptism for the dead. I had this book on Mormonism in my library and my aim was to extract the obvious unique Mormon concepts and briefly discuss them. At the end there were far too many concepts where the Mormons contradict the Bible teaching that I decided to forget about the whole project, as any Mormon who reads the Bible for himself would see the discrepancies and the fanciful claims, ideas and practices of the Mormons. Nevertheless I will complete reading the book and also very surprised at what is stated in Section 4, Chapters 17 and 18 which I read this morning.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7,

That's fine, I was just mentioning my progress through the book. Possibly Aaron32 started this thread as a result of my question as to where pre-existence of all is mentioned in the Bible. I mentioned that my last encounter with Mormons was 30 years ago with two 20 y.o. "elders" who claimed that they pre-existed. Apart from this I was aware of a few Mormon concepts such as baptism for the dead. I had this book on Mormonism in my library and my aim was to extract the obvious unique Mormon concepts and briefly discuss them. At the end there were far too many concepts where the Mormons contradict the Bible teaching that I decided to forget about the whole project, as any Mormon who reads the Bible for himself would see the discrepancies and the fanciful claims, ideas and practices of the Mormons. Nevertheless I will complete reading the book and also very surprised at what is stated in Section 4, Chapters 17 and 18 which I read this morning.

Kind regards
Trevor
You ran the gamut of issues, why not discuss one at a time, trying to bring up a complexity of issues, doctrine and differences does not make for a very simple yet transparent and clear discussion...
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Possibly Aaron32 started this thread as a result of my question as to where pre-existence of all is mentioned in the Bible.
Nah. @Aaron32 started this thread to find common ground with our critics. But he, like you, are both wrong. The early church and the Book of Mormon teachers all were aware of the pre-existence and taught it. I'm surprised you all missed it or even how you can continue to ignore it. IMO, that just tells me how much you all don't know and further how critical such an idea is to who we are. If we are creations like a statute or a building, then we have no thought of our own and would be no more capable of sin than a rock is. The bodies we dwell in are God's creation, but the being that dwells within them is not. It is the being that will be judged, not the body.

Your teachings about what God created in us would mean that whatever we do, God created us to do. That would make us puppets and that whatever we did, we were designed by God to do and should not be held accountable for any of our actions. And when would we ever be able to do anything but what the puppet master wanted us to do? This reminds of a political statement that we will own nothing and be happy about it. That is the religion of those who accept creation at birth. Your end philosophy is exactly like the political one. We will have nothing but everlasting life and be happy about it. If it isn't true in the political venue, it won't be true in the eternities no matter how much you want it to be.

I had this book on Mormonism in my library and my aim was to extract the obvious unique Mormon concepts and briefly discuss them.
Fine, discuss them, but do it in separate threads. There is no value in an argument that meanders through a maze without an objective in mind. In addition, reading someone else's opinion of our religion is just going to give you their opinion. Form your own opinion, read our material and ask us to explain it if you don't understand it.

Start with the Book of Mormon, then the Doctrine & Covenants, then the Pearl of Great Price. Those would be good for a start.
At the end there were far too many concepts where the Mormons contradict the Bible teaching
Far too many I'm the opinion of the author u r reading. Your book report just seems like so much incoherent rambling, there is nothing to really address. My first thought is to dismiss them all as being misleading. Then there is the fact that you think you already know the truth rather than seeking to find truth and as such, you just become an antagonist without the ability to debate.

Your first question has been answered. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon address the pre-existent nature of man. It's not about foreknowledge, it's about actually being called from before we were born, before anyone was born. All this and yet, you know better, why? Because you read a book. All you are doing is learning from men, not God and not the spirit. And now, rather than explore this challenge to your understanding (based on someone else's opinion), you have moved on to other opinions, dismissing the opportunity before you. Can u see why we have no interest in your book report?
I decided to forget about the whole project,
Great, why r u still here?
any Mormon who reads the Bible for himself would see the discrepancies and the fanciful claims, ideas and practices of the Mormons.
And that's just it. We don't see that and the Bible is in our canon of scripture. We spend two years on the Bible in each round of church instruction (which rotates through the scriptures which includes the Book of Mormon and church history - giving a year to these other two topics). We find that the Bible supports our theology where yours is a reinterpretation of it, kind of like making it fit your theology rather than the other way around.

For example, it is clear that throughout the Bible temple worship was central, both old and new testament and that temples will be central in the last days, yet you all have no temples at all. It's now be redefined to be either our bodies or some other definition that fits your forms of worship. Your not even close to the temple litergy one finds in the Bible and from what I can tell, never will be. You all wouldn't even know what to do with one if you had one. Look at the RLDS. They have one but it's just a big chapel, largely unused.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7 and brotherofJared,
You ran the gamut of issues, why not discuss one at a time
No thank you. This thread is sufficient.
If we are creations like a statute or a building, then we have no thought of our own and would be no more capable of sin than a rock is. The bodies we dwell in are God's creation, but the being that dwells within them is not. It is the being that will be judged, not the body.
I am actually fascinated and stand in awe of the brain that God has created not only in man but in every creature. This is no comparison with a statue. There is even no comparison to modern computers.
Your teachings about what God created in us would mean that whatever we do, God created us to do. That would make us puppets and that whatever we did, we were designed by God to do and should not be held accountable for any of our actions.
Again I dismiss this as we all develop character based upon our environment, our education and our individual choices. I believe in the mortality of man and when we die we return to the dust Genesis 3:19, Psalm 6:4-5, Daniel 12:2-3. I find the Mormon spirit worlds (heavens) before birth and after death erroneous. I believe in the resurrection from the grave to live for the 1000 years with Jesus as the King / Priest on David's Temple/Throne centred in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7 and brotherofJared,

No thank you. This thread is sufficient.

I am actually fascinated and stand in awe of the brain that God has created not only in man but in every creature. This is no comparison with a statue. There is even no comparison to modern computers.

Again I dismiss this as we all develop character based upon our environment, our education and our individual choices. I believe in the mortality of man and when we die we return to the dust Genesis 3:19, Psalm 6:4-5, Daniel 12:2-3. I find the Mormon spirit worlds (heavens) before birth and after death erroneous. I believe in the resurrection from the grave to live for the 1000 years with Jesus as the King / Priest on David's Temple/Throne centred in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
As for me, I often wonder also who created the brain... after all matter is eternal...
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Richard7 and brotherofJared,
As for me, I often wonder also who created the brain... after all matter is eternal...
Even this comment seems strange to me as I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father created all things.
LOL. Ok. Dismiss it.
I finished reading the book I mentioned this morning. Previously I had some idea of a few of the teachings of LDS, but this book certainly covered a much larger perspective on the history, the teachings and the practices of the Mormons. One thing I was uncertain about is that I assumed that the teenage or 20 y.o. "elders" may have represented the only major interaction and preaching to the public and I assumed that older Mormons were inactive and I was not sure if they were at all interested or enthusiastic. Both of you have given an insight that some of the older generation feel strongly about their beliefs and are willing to strongly defend these. I appreciate the time and effort, but I will be putting my book back on the shelf now, and I doubt that another pair of "Elders" will visit me in the next 30 years. I would be 108 y.o. by then and I anticipate the return of Jesus before the next 30 years, and realistically my health will also fail soon. We have one 105 or 106 year old member in our meeting.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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