Is salvation or faith possible without being "called" or "drawn" by God?

fltom said:
No I am saying your comments have nothing to do with how Christ draws
Click to expand...

If God draws people to Himself and Jesus Christ is God as well, then God must uses Jesus Christ to draw people to Himself too. Does Christ not "do the Father's work"?

Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. John 14:24

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9:15-18

14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:6

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 1 John 4:7

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 1 John 3:1

May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 2 Peter 1:2

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:2

You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4
 
TheTruth said:
If God draws people to Himself and Jesus Christ is God as well, then God must uses Jesus Christ to draw people to Himself too. Does Christ not "do the Father's work"?
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Once again the issue is how Jesus states to draw


I noted the personal nature of his statement

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

you appear to affirm that also
 
fltom said:
Once again the issue is how Jesus states to draw

I noted the personal nature of his statement

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

you appear to affirm that also
Click to expand...

As long as it is God that is doing the drawing. Or do you think that the the Father and the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of truth) is excluded from the drawing and His "draw" is "resistible"?

Also, were you able to resist His draw?
 
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TheTruth said:
As long as it is God that is doing the drawing. Or do you think that the the Father and the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of truth) is excluded from the drawing and His "draw" is "resistible"?

Also, were you able to resist His draw?
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Many do

If all are drawn and all do not come to Christ it is obvious
 
fltom said:
Many do

If all are drawn and all do not come to Christ it is obvious
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Evasion. Again, were you able to resist His draw?

We ONLY have our own personal experience with God's grace to go on, because we can't experience God's grace through someone else's experience, it is purely personal and a One on one thing.

If you couldn't resist God's draw yourself, then it should be obvious to you that His draw is irresistible. You can't use unbelievers unbelief and rejection of God as to anything God does with believers, that's completely unjustifiable.
 
TheTruth said:
Evasion. Again, were you able to resist His draw?

We ONLY have our own personal experience with God's grace to go on, because we can't experience God's grace through someone else's experience, it is purely personal and a One on one thing.

If you couldn't resist God's draw yourself, then it should be obvious to you that His draw is irresistible. You can't use unbelievers unbelief and rejection of God as to anything God does with believers, that's completely unjustifiable.
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What evasion?

you asked

As long as it is God that is doing the drawing. Or do you think that the the Father and the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of truth) is excluded from the drawing and His "draw" is "resistible"?

Also, were you able to resist His draw?
......................................................

Did so for many years

But your premise is faulty

Because some do not resist does not necessitate all could not resist
 
fltom said:
What evasion?
Click to expand...

In giving a straight answer.

fltom said:
Did so for many years
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Actually it sounds like you're still resisting by not giving God is due.

fltom said:
But your premise is faulty
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Which part "is faulty", here it is again: We ONLY have our own personal experience with God's grace to go on, because we can't experience God's grace through someone else's experience, it is purely personal and a One on one thing.

If you couldn't resist God's draw yourself, then it should be obvious to you that His draw is irresistible. You can't use unbelievers unbelief and rejection of God as to anything God does with believers, that's completely unjustifiable.

fltom said:
Because some do not resist does not necessitate all could not resist
Click to expand...

If all who got saved didn't resist His grace, then all of God's children necessarily could not resist His grace. God is in the business of creating His children, not duds. No one cries for spent sperm?
 
TheTruth said:
In giving a straight answer.



Actually it sounds like you're still resisting by not giving God is due.



Which part "is faulty", here it is again: We ONLY have our own personal experience with God's grace to go on, because we can't experience God's grace through someone else's experience, it is purely personal and a One on one thing.

If you couldn't resist God's draw yourself, then it should be obvious to you that His draw is irresistible. You can't use unbelievers unbelief and rejection of God as to anything God does with believers, that's completely unjustifiable.



If all who got saved didn't resist His grace, then all of God's children necessarily could not resist His grace. God is in the business of creating His children, not duds. No one cries for spent sperm?
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There is your problem right there

you began with the assumption on those ultimately saved were drawn

thus you beg the question
 
fltom said:
There is your problem right there

you began with the assumption on those ultimately saved were drawn

thus you beg the question
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No, "There is your problem right there"; you're still resisting. No one can come unless they are drawn.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Hebrews 4:16

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

John 6:43-46
43 Jesus answered, therefore, and said to them, `Murmur not one with another
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
45 it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;
46 not that any one hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father.

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect; 18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God, 19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought; '20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
 
TheTruth said:
And ONLY "if drawn".



And again, ONLY if the Father "draws him".

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
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Can come

It is what I was saying

at least until

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

when Christ would draw
 
fltom said:
Can come

It is what I was saying

at least until

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

when Christ would draw
Click to expand...

The son (Christ) can't do anything with the Father, including drawing man to Himself. Don't know what your problem is with the Father, but no-one can do anything without Him.

John 5:19
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 8:28
So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16

43 Jesus answered, therefore, and said to them, `Murmur not one with another;
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
45 it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me; 46 not that any one hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:43-46

28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have (A)lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28

28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. John 12:28-35

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:43-47

13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. Isaiah 54:13

33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:33-34
 
TheTruth said:
The son (Christ) can't do anything with the Father, including drawing man to Himself. Don't know what your problem is with the Father, but no-one can do anything without Him.

John 5:19
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 8:28
So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16

43 Jesus answered, therefore, and said to them, `Murmur not one with another;
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
45 it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me; 46 not that any one hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:43-46

28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have (A)lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28

28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. John 12:28-35

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:43-47

13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. Isaiah 54:13

33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:33-34
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Are you denying Jesus can draw

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Did you note many of your verses had to do with Christ's time on the earth before he went to the cross

Do you have a problem with Jesus being God?
 
fltom said:
Are you denying Jesus can draw

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Did you note many of your verses had to do with Christ's time on the earth before he went to the cross

Do you have a problem with Jesus being God?
Click to expand...

Strawman. Are you denying that the Father and Holy Spirit are involved? because no one is denying that Jesus is a part of the Trinity, but Jesus can't do anything without the Father and the Holy Spirit. So, what's your problem with this Biblical reality?

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. John 5:19

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 6:38

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37
 
TheTruth said:
Strawman. Are you denying that the Father and Holy Spirit are involved? because no one is denying that Jesus is a part of the Trinity, but Jesus can't do anything without the Father and the Holy Spirit. So, what's your problem with this Biblical reality?

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. John 5:19

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 6:38

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37
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In Jesus drawing yes

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Subject I -Jesus verb will draw
 
fltom said:
In Jesus drawing yes

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Subject I -Jesus verb will draw
Click to expand...

And Jesus said that he "can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise" and "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me". And "you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority", because "not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me" and "all that the Father gives me will come to me".
Are you pretending that Jesus can do anything on his own and not with the Father and the Holy Spirit?

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. John 5:19

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 6:38

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37
 
TheTruth said:
And Jesus said that he "can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise" and "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me". And "you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority", because "not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me" and "all that the Father gives me will come to me".
Are you pretending that Jesus can do anything on his own and not with the Father and the Holy Spirit?

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. John 5:19

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 6:38

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37
Click to expand...
John 6:37 and related verses concern the time Christ was upon earth and had come to do the Fathers will

John 6:38 (KJV)
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Enabling their coming to Christ

John 6:65 (NIV2011)
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

The Father had given to Christ those that were his

John 17:6 (KJV)
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

The Father had to Draw to Christ by the method shown here

John 6:45 (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

after the cross he himself would draw

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
fltom said:
John 6:37 and related verses concern the time Christ was upon earth and had come to do the Fathers will
Click to expand...

Are you saying then that the will of Father isn't to be done any longer, but it is now all Jesus's and his will that is being done?

fltom said:
John 6:37 and related verses concern the time Christ was upon earth and had come to do the Fathers will

John 6:38 (KJV)
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Enabling their coming to Christ

John 6:65 (NIV2011)
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

The Father had given to Christ those that were his

John 17:6 (KJV)
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

The Father had to Draw to Christ by the method shown here

John 6:45 (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

after the cross he himself would draw

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Click to expand...

I have seen nowhere in the Bible that Jesus would be the only one drawing, and that the Father and the Holy Spirit stopped working on people.

Not his own will, "but the will of Him who sent us him".
Jesus was asked how shall we pray, he responded: "thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. `Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. `Our appointed bread give us to-day. `And forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors. `And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but deliver us from the evil, because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory -- to the ages. Amen." Matthew 6:9-13

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. (John 8:28)
 
TheTruth said:
Are you saying then that the will of Father isn't to be done any longer, but it is now all Jesus's and his will that is being done?



I have seen nowhere in the Bible that Jesus would be the only one drawing, and that the Father and the Holy Spirit stopped working on people.

Not his own will, "but the will of Him who sent us him".
Jesus was asked how shall we pray, he responded: "thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. `Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. `Our appointed bread give us to-day. `And forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors. `And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but deliver us from the evil, because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory -- to the ages. Amen." Matthew 6:9-13

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. (John 8:28)
Click to expand...
I am saying that while Jesus was on earth before the cross it was God's will that that he God draw unto Christ but that after the cross God's will was that Christ draw all men to himself

Before the cross

John 6:44 (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

after

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

PS no one stated anything at all about the father and the spirit no longer work on men

that would be a misrepresentation
 
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