Is salvation or faith possible without being "called" or "drawn" by God?

fltom said:
The issue being discussed here is who performs the drawing

nothing you post above addresses that


Again these are Christs words

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

we have Christ's word he will draw

personal masculine pronoun

no reference here to the written or spoken word
Click to expand...

How does one go from an unbeliever to a believer; what makes a unbeliever believe when a unbeliever isn't doing what is required in order to make the truth and reality of God known to them, what makes them believe? Is it something man does or is it something man does in accordance with God?

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;
18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God,
19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'
20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
 
TheTruth said:
How does one go from an unbeliever to a believer; what makes a unbeliever believe when a unbeliever isn't doing what is required in order to make the truth and reality of God known to them, what makes them believe? Is it something man does or is it something man does in accordance with God?

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;
18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God,
19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'
20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
Click to expand...
?
 
TheTruth said:
How does one go from an unbeliever to a believer; what makes a unbeliever believe when a unbeliever isn't doing what is required in order to make the truth and reality of God known to them, what makes them believe? Is it something man does or is it something man does in accordance with God?

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;
18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God,
19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'
20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
Click to expand...
Why are you all over the place

the issue here is Christs drawing

fltom said:
The issue being discussed here is who performs the drawing

nothing you post above addresses that


Again these are Christs words

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

we have Christ's word he will draw

personal masculine pronoun

no reference here to the written or spoken word

can you stick to the topic?
 
fltom said:
Why are you all over the place

the issue here is Christs drawing

fltom said:
The issue being discussed here is who performs the drawing

nothing you post above addresses that


Again these are Christs words

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

we have Christ's word he will draw

personal masculine pronoun

no reference here to the written or spoken word

can you stick to the topic?
Click to expand...

Evasion. This is my thread and I asked the Question: Is salvation or faith possible without being "called" or "drawn" by God?

So again. How does one go from an unbeliever to a believer; what makes a unbeliever believe when a unbeliever isn't doing what is required in order to make the truth and reality of God known to them, what makes them believe? Is it something man does or is it something man does in accordance with God?

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;
18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God,
19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'
20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
 
TheTruth said:
Evasion. This is my thread and I asked the Question: Is salvation or faith possible without being "called" or "drawn" by God?

ose believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
Click to expand...
Sorry but the present discussion is the drawing of Christ

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

we have Christ's word he will draw

personal masculine pronoun

no reference here to the written or spoken word
 
fltom said:
Yes

will you answer the question

Did Christ say if he was lifted up he will draw all men to himself?

Do you believe Christ?
Click to expand...
If Christ has drawn all men, why haven't all men come to Him? Is Christ's drawing of men inept? Or, is your understanding?
 
fltom said:
Yes

will you answer the question

Did Christ say if he was lifted up he will draw all men to himself?

Do you believe Christ?
Click to expand...

fltom said:
Sorry but the present discussion is the drawing of Christ

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

we have Christ's word he will draw

personal masculine pronoun

no reference here to the written or spoken word
Click to expand...

More evasion.

Who's lifting Christ up?

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11
 
TheTruth said:
Who's lifting Christ up?

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11
Click to expand...
That addresses the drawing by Christ how?
 
Howie said:
If Christ has drawn all men, why haven't all men come to Him? Is Christ's drawing of men inept? Or, is your understanding?
Click to expand...
You assume drawing must result in coming

yet

Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,



The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him. Brian Wagner
 
fltom said:
That addresses the drawing by Christ how?
Click to expand...

Because God lifts up Christ. Are you pretending He doesn't?

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11
 
Howie said:
It does. That's the goal of drawing.
Click to expand...
sorry you ignored the evidence

this seems to be your pattern

here are additional examples



Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:

Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:

Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,

And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Israel though drawn was disobedient

Draw (Helko) is also used at 4Macc 14:13; 15:11(8) influence
 
TheTruth said:
Because God lifts up Christ. Are you pretending He doesn't?

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11
Click to expand...
No I am saying your comments have nothing to do with how Christ draws
 
fltom said:
sorry you ignored the evidence

this seems to be your pattern

here are additional examples
Click to expand...
ISTM, your position is, that when Jesus said He would draw all men to Him (Jn 12) He expected that all men would not come, is that right?
 
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