Is Sin/Evil A Created “Thing”… (By God or By Man)?

Sketo

Well-known member
The Problem Of Evil

If you believe sin is a thing created out of nothing, then your understanding contains at least 2 problems you must deal with


Problem 1: Scripture states that all “things” that are created were created by God… not man.

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1Co 8:6)

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (Joh 1:3)

Eph 1:11 “having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”



Problem 2: How could man add any thing to the “all things created/made by God” without contradicting the verses above?

How can anything, other than God, add to the list of “All Things” that are only possible with God? (See John 1:3 above)

How is “Allplusmore” not a contradiction?

CCS
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Sin is not something God or man created; rather, is it not something we do?
1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Sin is not something God or man created; rather, is it not something we do?

Exactly… sin is a description of an action… or “something we do”…

So now the question is: What action, or “doing”, can be described as “sin”?

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

According to this only actions that “transgress the law” are described as sin.

This brings us to the next question: What do these “laws” apply to?… or What can “transgress the law”?…

Can God “transgress the law”?
Can man “transgress the law”?
Can angels “transgress the law”?
Can animals “transgress the law”?
Can nature “transgress the law”?

 

Kampioen

Well-known member
The Problem Of Evil

If you believe sin is a thing created out of nothing, then your understanding contains at least 2 problems you must deal with


Problem 1: Scripture states that all “things” that are created were created by God… not man.

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1Co 8:6)

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (Joh 1:3)

Eph 1:11 “having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”



Problem 2: How could man add any thing to the “all things created/made by God” without contradicting the verses above?

How can anything, other than God, add to the list of “All Things” that are only possible with God? (See John 1:3 above)

How is “Allplusmore” not a contradiction?

CCS

Libertarian choice does not add to creation but is merely the outplay of it.

God created the concept of sin but let man libertarianly decide whether to perform it.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Libertarian choice does not add to creation but is merely the outplay of it.

So basically your “choice” is the “outplay” of God’s “creation”.

God created the concept of sin…

So basically God defined what is described as “sin”…

…but let man libertarianly decide whether to perform it.

…but that assumes that man’s “deciding” or “preforming” is not part of the “All things” God works. By definition this is limiting God to only working some things even though scripture states…

“predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)

Justify your assumption please.

 

eternomade

Well-known member
I believe that before time God decreed for Adam to sin in order that Jesus would come redeem His people. Sin didn't surprise God...
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
So basically your “choice” is the “outplay” of God’s “creation”.

So basically God defined what is described as “sin”…

…but that assumes that man’s “deciding” or “preforming” is not part of the “All things” God works. By definition this is limiting God to only working some things even though scripture states…

“predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)

Justify your assumption please.

The predestined are those who first trusted in Christ, making them libertarian.

Ephesians 1:12 (KJV) That we should be to the praise of his glory, *who first trusted in Christ*.

God creates but it is not referring to when man creates evil. Man invents evil by himself and it makes God angry, thus it is libertarian.

Romans 1:30 (KJV) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, *inventors* of evil things, disobedient to parents,

However, man has no omni-attributes. God is omniscient ie foreknows all things, so libertarian choice can't escape God.
 
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I believe that before time God decreed for Adam to sin in order that Jesus would come redeem His people. Sin didn't surprise God...
Hello Eternomade, I would say the same thing, but a little differently (and mean something a bit different as well perhaps?). I would put it like this:

"I believe that before time God knew that Adam would choose to sin, and He allowed him to do so. God also knew at that time that He would need to send His Son to us to redeem us and save us. Sin didn't surprise God..."

IYHO, are we are saying the same thing, something slightly different, or something substantially different from one another :unsure: (and if one of the latter two, how so?)

Just FYI, along with the Bible and the Reformers, I believe that God knows all that ~has~ happened and is ~yet~ to happen, and that He has therefore, from the beginning, ordained whatsoever has/will come to pass in this world (meaning that He knows and is in control all things, because He either "allows" them to happen, "causes" them to happen, or "stops" them from happening .. see below).


Isaiah 46
9 “I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’”.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

.
 
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eternomade

Well-known member
Hello Eternomade, I would say the same thing, but a little differently (and mean something a bit different as well perhaps?). I would put it like this:

"I believe that before time God knew that Adam would choose to sin, and He allowed him to do so. God also knew at that time that He would need to send His Son to us to redeem us and save us. Sin didn't surprise God..."

IYHO, are we are saying the same thing, something slightly different, or something substantially different from one another :unsure: (and if one of the latter two, how so?)

Just FYI, along with the Bible and the Reformers, I believe that God knows all that ~has~ happened and is ~yet~ to happen, and that He has therefore, from the beginning, ordained whatsoever has/will come to pass in this world (meaning that He knows and is in control all things, because He either "allows" them to happen, "causes" them to happen, or "stops" them from happening .. see below).


Isaiah 46
9 “I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’”.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

.
I think the biggest difference is I do not believe that God "allows" anything. God's will is always done. He causes all things to happen. It's the difference between supralapsarian and infralapsarian I believe.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Hello Eternomade, I would say the same thing, but a little differently (and mean something a bit different as well perhaps?). I would put it like this:

"I believe that before time God knew that Adam would choose to sin, and He allowed him to do so. God also knew at that time that He would need to send His Son to us to redeem us and save us. Sin didn't surprise God..."

IYHO, are we are saying the same thing, something slightly different, or something substantially different from one another :unsure: (and if one of the latter two, how so?)

Just FYI, along with the Bible and the Reformers, I believe that God knows all that ~has~ happened and is ~yet~ to happen, and that He has therefore, from the beginning, ordained whatsoever has/will come to pass in this world (meaning that He knows and is in control all things, because He either "allows" them to happen, "causes" them to happen, or "stops" them from happening .. see below).


Isaiah 46
9 “I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’”.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

.
I think you might find many Calvinists hold God determined Adam would sin
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
This brings us to the next question: What do these “laws” apply to?… or What can “transgress the law”?…

Can God “transgress the law”?
Can man “transgress the law”?
Can angels “transgress the law”?
Can animals “transgress the law”?
Can nature “transgress the law”?

The purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ; it does not mention bringing God, angels, animals, and nature to God.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
According to this only actions that “transgress the law” are described as sin.

This brings us to the next question: What do these “laws” apply to?… or What can “transgress the law”?…

Can God “transgress the law”?
Can man “transgress the law”?
Can angels “transgress the law”?
Can animals “transgress the law”?
Can nature “transgress the law”?
The purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ; it does not mention bringing God, angels, animals, and nature to God.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I assume you are answering the question by stating the “law” only applies to “us”…

not God, angels, animals, or nature correct?

 
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PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Are you saying the “law” only applies to “us”…

not God, angels, animals, or nature correct?

I'm saying scripture makes no mention of the law bringing God, angels, animals, and nature to God.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Are you suggesting different laws for God, angels, animals, and nature?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
I'm saying scripture makes no mention of the law bringing God, angels, animals, and nature to God.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

First, Why did you avoid my question?

According to this only actions that “transgress the law” are described as sin.

This brings us to the next question: What do these “laws” apply to?… or What can “transgress the law”?…

Can God “transgress the law”?
Can man “transgress the law”?
Can angels “transgress the law”?
Can animals “transgress the law”?
Can nature “transgress the law”?


Please answer...
 

Sketo

Well-known member
How do I answer a question for which scripture provides no answer? My answer will either be a presupposition or negative inference.

Ok… this one should be simple enough…

Can animals, such as a Lion, preform an action, such as killing a person, such that it can be described as “sin”?

Why or why not?…

 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Ok… this one should be simple enough…

Can animals, such as a Lion, preform an action, such as killing a person, such that it can be described as “sin”?

Why or why not?…

I would say animals killing a person is not described as "sin".
Why?
There is no precedent in scripture of an animal committing a sinful killing or of an animal being reproved of a sinful killing.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
I would say animals killing a person is not described as "sin".
Why?

I agree, I don’t believe an animal killing a person can ever be described as “sin” until there is a “law” given to animals that states “Thou shalt not kill humans”…

What do you think?

There is no precedent in scripture of an animal committing a sinful killing…

I believe this is due to the fact that animals are not under a “law”, given to them by God. So an animals act of killing could not be described as “sinful” in the first place..

or of an animal being reproved of a sinful killing.

Correct.

A man killing another man can be described as sin, but a Lion killing a man can not be described as sin.


So again…

According to this, only actions that “transgress the law” can described as sin.

This brings us to the next question: What do these “laws” apply to?… or What can “transgress the law”?…

Can God “transgress the law”?
Can man “transgress the law”?
Can angels “transgress the law”?
Can animals “transgress the law”?
Can nature “transgress the law”?

 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
I believe this is due to the fact that animals are not under a “law”, given to them by God. So an animals act of killing could not be described as “sinful” in the first place..
...
Can God “transgress the law”?
Can man “transgress the law”?
Can angels “transgress the law”?
Can animals “transgress the law”?
Can nature “transgress the law”?

We agree that man is under a "law'', and animals are not under a "law"; does scripture speak of 'a law' to which God is subject?
Can God's moral nature be described as a "law'; meaning, can God go against his nature, thus sin?
 
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