Is Sin/Evil A Created “Thing”… (By God or By Man)?

fltom

Well-known member
We agree that man is under a "law'', and animals are not under a "law"; does scripture speak of 'a law' to which God is subject?
Can God's moral nature be described as a "law'; meaning, can God go against his nature, thus sin?
Of course God cannot go against his loving just nature

And that is why determination is false
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
The Problem Of Evil

If you believe sin is a thing created out of nothing, then your understanding contains at least 2 problems you must deal with


Problem 1: Scripture states that all “things” that are created were created by God… not man.

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1Co 8:6)

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (Joh 1:3)

Eph 1:11 “having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”



Problem 2: How could man add any thing to the “all things created/made by God” without contradicting the verses above?

How can anything, other than God, add to the list of “All Things” that are only possible with God? (See John 1:3 above)

How is “Allplusmore” not a contradiction?

CCS
More worthless "Word Games". "SIN" is simply that which works evil. A man is tempted when he is DRAWN AWAY by his OWN LUST, and "Enticed" (satan's contribution). When the man allows the LUST to "Conceive" (in the sexual sense - conception results in a birth) and that conception produces sinful ACTIONS. (James 1:14,15).
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
More worthless "Word Games". "SIN" is simply that which works evil. A man is tempted when he is DRAWN AWAY by his OWN LUST, and "Enticed" (satan's contribution). When the man allows the LUST to "Conceive" (in the sexual sense - conception results in a birth) and that conception produces sinful ACTIONS. (James 1:14,15).
A tossed word salad 🥗 with nothing but iceberg lettuce 🥬 😂
 

Sketo

Well-known member
We agree that man is under a "law'', and animals are not under a "law"; does scripture speak of 'a law' to which God is subject?

Good question… what “law” is God subject to such that any action of his could be described as “sin”?

Most answer with something like “God is so good that he would not sin”…

… but this answer falsely assumes God could “sin” if he wanted to.

Can God's moral nature be described as a "law'; meaning, can God go against his nature, thus sin?

I don’t see scripture teaching “God’s nature as a ‘law’”…

The question is which one of the “moral laws”, given to creation, can also apply to God in the first place…

Can God kill such that it can be described as “sin”?

 

Sketo

Well-known member
What do you mean by “works evil”?
Produces results contrary to God's will.

So you would consider “the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets” an “evil work” because it produced lying prophets, as the result, contrary to God’s will?

(Assuming you believe lying is contrary to God’s will and described as sin)


“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”” (1Ki 22:21-23)

 

Sketo

Well-known member
Of course God cannot go against his loving just nature

So of course God would never put Job’s name in the mind of a serial tormentor when Satan could not find anyone to torment right?

I mean if a man did this to his own child of course you would still call that an act of a “loving just nature” correct?

No… why? Because it has to do with “transgression of a law” and nothing to do with “natures”.

And that is why determination is false

God can determine that Job be the target of Satin by saying “Have you considered my servant Job” fully knowing the result of that act

… but God did not stop there. God knew the brutal results when he said to Satan “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.” (Job 1:12)

And he also knew the results when he said again “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”” (Job 2:5-6)


If man pointed a serial tormentor at his own child and said “do what you want to him”, knowing the result of that action, you would call it an evil act… so how can you call the exact same act “loving and just” when God does it?

If you can’t answer this then you will have made it obvious that you do not know what you are talking about.
 
I think the biggest difference is I do not believe that God "allows" anything. God's will is always done. He causes all things to happen. It's the difference between supralapsarian and infralapsarian I believe.
Interesting. So that I can understand exactly what you are saying, I'd like to ask you another question or two about this.

1. Do you believe that whenever we sin, we do so at God's behest, IOW, do you believe that God causes/forces us to sin :unsure: (if that's not it, then please tell me what you believe instead .. thanks :)) and ...

2. If that truly is the case (that God ~is~ the Author/Cause of sin, and that He actually forces us to sin) how can He escape being labeled the Author and proximate Cause of sin, and as some sort of maniacal Monster as well, seeing that He sends people to spend eternity in Hell/the Lake of Fire for something that He forced them to do :unsure:

Thanks for your help :)

~Deuteronomy
 
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I think you might find many Calvinists hold God determined Adam would sin
Hello Fltom, that has not been my experience in real life or on other boards, but I'm pretty new to this forum, so perhaps I will find it to be true here :unsure:

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
 

fltom

Well-known member
So of course God would never put Job’s name in the mind of a serial tormentor when Satan could not find anyone to torment right?

I mean if a man did this to his own child of course you would still call that an act of a “loving just nature” correct?

No… why? Because it has to do with “transgression of a law” and nothing to do with “natures”.

Did God judge Job and consign him to eternal torment based on what He God caused Job to do

If not why do you mention him?

It's only a diversion
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Did God judge Job and consign him to eternal torment based on what He God caused Job to do

We were discussing your misunderstanding of God’s “loving just nature” in Gods interaction with Satan, not Job. Why the deflection? Stay on track fltom. You can do it.

Again…

Of course God cannot go against his loving just nature

So of course God would never put Job’s name in the mind of a serial tormentor when Satan could not find anyone to torment right?

I mean if a man did this to his own child of course you would still call that an act of a “loving just nature” correct?

No… why? Because it has to do with “transgression of a law” and nothing to do with “natures”.

And that is why determination is false

God can determine that Job be the target of Satin by saying “Have you considered my servant Job” fully knowing the result of that act

… but God did not stop there. God knew the brutal results when he said to Satan “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.” (Job 1:12)

And he also knew the results when he said again “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”” (Job 2:5-6)


If man pointed a serial tormentor at his own child and said “do what you want to him”, knowing the result of that action, you would call it an evil act… so how can you call the exact same act “loving and just” when God does it?

If fltom can’t answer this then fltom will have made it obvious that he does not know what he is talking about.


 
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eternomade

Well-known member
1. Do you believe that whenever we sin, we do so at God's behest, IOW, do you believe that God causes/forces us to sin :unsure: (if that's not it, then please tell me what you believe instead .. thanks :)) and ...
Yes.


2. If that truly is the case (that God ~is~ the Author/Cause of sin, and that He actually forces us to sin) how can He escape being labeled the Author and proximate Cause of sin, and as some sort of maniacal Monster as well, seeing that He sends people to spend eternity in Hell/the Lake of Fire for something that He forced them to do :unsure:
I believe that God is the first cause of sin. I don't believe God is capable of being evil though. Nor do I believe that God is responsible to anything or anyone.

There's countless narratives of God controlling people. I can give you examples if you'd like.

If God is sovereign in salvation but man is sovereign in reprobation, then no one would be saved. I believe that God actively saves His elect and actively hardens the reprobate.

I would like to ask you a question.

Was it possible for Judas to be saved? Judas was prophesied to be the son of perdition. Do you believe this was unfair to him?

The high priest Caiaphas prophesied about Jesus, was this his own doing or God?

I do not believe in free will unless we are speaking about God.
 
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