Is the Atonement sufficient for all ?

T

TomFL

Guest
I agree Jesus was judging the Pharisees in Matthew 23 and condemning them . The chapter is filled with condemnation and judgement from Jesus.
In context with the discussion

Do you believe Jesus determined all the Pharisees and scribes to eternal damnation

for that is the type judgment being referred to

Further can you find any support for the idea Jesus came to earth for that purpose

for that is what Civic is trying to establish to avoid


John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
 

civic

Well-known member
False I addressed it many times

There is not a single thing in it which states Jesus came for that purpose

You forget why you entered into this discussion

John 12:47-48 (KJV)

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

you were attempting to contradict Christ's statement

for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jesus did not say he came to judge the pharisees

Or that he came not to judge anyone but the pharisees

You keep ignoring the point why Jesus came

You agreed it would be fair to ask one question and then the other party gets to ask one question

You asked four and still have not addressed John 12:47

Or produced a single verse where Jesus states he came to judge the pharisees

Why are reneging on what you claimed was fair ?
Same ole lame ole thing again. You ran away from Jesus own words on condemnation and judgment in Matthew 23. How convenient.

Try talking about discussing Jesus words in Matthew 23.

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
In context with the discussion

Do you believe Jesus determined all the Pharisees and scribes to eternal damnation

for that is the type judgment being referred to

Further can you find any support for the idea Jesus came to earth for that purpose

for that is what Civic is trying to establish to avoid


John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Did Jesus judge/condemn the pharisees in Matthew 23 or save them ?

Which one Tom ?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
In context with the discussion

Do you believe Jesus determined all the Pharisees and scribes to eternal damnation

for that is the type judgment being referred to

Further can you find any support for the idea Jesus came to earth for that purpose

for that is what Civic is trying to establish to avoid


John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Is hell eternal ?
Is heaven eternal ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Tom, you don’t make the rules.
you don’t blitz the thread with tons of verses claiming you done your job and demand everyone follow along.

Imagine if I did, I can just copy and paste maybe 10 verses in reply.
Then in return you copy and paste 10 more, back and forth all day. Is that what your looking for? If so, it’s a stupid game I’m not interested in playing it.

Can you present your case and let scripture answer it?

Can you do it?
Asking can you di it is not making the rules

I already presented my case

It rests on the simple syllogism

1 to regenerate is to make alive

2 The bible shows faith precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

If faith precedes new life which is regeneration

then it is obvious faith precedes regeneration

you have not addressed this

offering a few comments on John 20:31 is not answering it

you did the same thing with John 12:47

and i predicted you would do the same thing with John 20:31

and so far that is what we have
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Is hell eternal ?
Is heaven eternal ?
Yes and yes

Can you now respond to what you were asked ?

Do you believe Jesus determined all the Pharisees and scribes to eternal damnation

for that is the type judgment being referred to

Further can you find any support for the idea Jesus came to earth for that purpose

for that is what Civic is trying to establish to avoid

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Christ's clear statement he came not to judge the world
 

civic

Well-known member
Yes and yes

Can you now respond to what you were asked ?

Do you believe Jesus determined all the Pharisees and scribes to eternal damnation

for that is the type judgment being referred to

Further can you find any support for the idea Jesus came to earth for that purpose

for that is what Civic is trying to establish to avoid

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Christ's clear statement he came not to judge the world
You just contradicted yourself since Jesus judged/condemned them to hell in Matthew 23.

you word games are over- Game, set and match.

end of discussion. its time to bury it where it belongs.

Amen @Johnnybgood you nailed him with your questions since he said yes. he just admitted he was wrong about Matthew 23 and Jesus words in John 12.

hope this helps !!!
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I'm reminded of a classic rock song titled:

" the same old story the same old song and dance. "
Perhaps you care to address the argument he did not

It rests on the simple syllogism

1 to regenerate is to make alive

2 The bible shows faith precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

If faith precedes new life which is done by regeneration

then it is obvious faith precedes regeneration
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You just contradicted yourself since Jesus judged/condemned them to hell in Matthew 23.

you word games are over- Game, set and match.

end of discussion. its time to bury it where it belongs.

Amen @Johnnybgood you nailed him with your questions since he said yes. he just admitted he was wrong about Matthew 23 and Jesus words in John 12.

hope this helps !!!
LOL

You just assumed what you needed to prove

First that all Pharisees and scribes ended up in hell

which we know is false

Two and more importantly Jesus came to earth for that purpose

which you nowhere showed

Sorry but you are running on empty

and are still contradicting scripture

John 12:47-48 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

BTW you did nothing to show I contradicted myself
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Asking can you di it is not making the rules

I already presented my case
You don’t have one to present.
It rests on the simple syllogism

1 to regenerate is to make alive
Yes.
2 The bible shows faith precedes life
That’s what you need to prove. So far, nothing.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

If faith precedes new life which is regeneration

then it is obvious faith precedes regeneration
Yes, all those who believe have life. That is descriptive of the believer, life.

But do show faith come first. I’m getting tired of waiting.
you have not addressed this
Lol. You just don’t like the truth.
offering a few comments on John 20:31 is not answering it
Posting a verse and giving your wishful opinion of it, does nothing but put you on display.
you did the same thing with John 12:47

and i predicted you would do the same thing with John 20:31

and so far that is what we have
You do the same thing on all verses. As I predicted. And so far, nothing has changed.
 

civic

Well-known member
LOL

You just assumed what you needed to prove

First that all Pharisees and scribes ended up in hell

which we know is false

Two and more importantly Jesus came to earth for that purpose

which you nowhere showed

Sorry but you are running on empty

and are still contradicting scripture

John 12:47-48 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

BTW you did nothing to show I contradicted myself
bait n switch- the fact is Jesus judged them and condemned them and when they died they will end up in hell exactly as He told them since their father was the devil and a liar and murderer just like they were liars/murderers. No murderer/liar has eternal life. you should learn to be more careful with Gods word.

next........................................
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
bait n switch- the fact is Jesus judged them and condemned them and when they died they will end up in hell exactly as He told them since their father was the devil and a liar and murderer just like they were liars/murderers. No murderer/liar has eternal life. you should learn to be more careful with Gods word.

next........................................
Yes I agree thank you
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
So what do you think so far Johnny?
Not about anyone, as far as judging goes, but as far as Arminianism and Calvinism and soteriology? Which seems more biblical? And why?

just curious
I’m still undecided and there are a couple here that make compelling arguments like @TibiasDad and @Ken Hamrick . I do believe in total depravity, I lean towards unconditional election , undecided on limited atonement but Calvinism makes more sense to me , I tip the scales in favor of irresistible grace but have not committed to that and I agree with preservation of the saints .

I do not know what that makes me but I’m sure there is a label for it haha. I’m 2/5 it looks like so far .

Thank you for asking and so far the calvinists have been the nicest to me but so has @TibiasDad and @Ken Hamrick .
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Deal with the rest on the context
Sure Tom, but I don't think you can deal with it.
Nicodemis asks

John 3:9-18 (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus answers


10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
I can ask you the same thing. Though your no master of theology, you come off like you are. So, how do you not know these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Basically what Jesus is saying is, He and His disciples teach doctrines that are certain, they are not of human invention based off the Jews traditions.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
The heavenly things are mysteries , the knowledge and fruition of which are revered for heavenly life.
Even so, it is necessary to know and understand them in this life. It helps keep our theology and understanding in logical biblical order instead of being all over the place and being inconsistent.
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
These are good verses to prove Christ came in the flesh and ascended into heaven in the flesh.


15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The world here Tom means mankind in it's generality. And I might add, which is subject to eternal perdition through sin.
But the good news is, God out of His sovereign and absolute good pleasure, has saved His elect from it, whom He has taken from all nations in the world indifferently that the whole kind might not perish.

This benefit God has not imparted to fallen angels, "nor universally to all men." 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. John 17.
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. John 17.

And all the elect can agree,
10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4.

God gave His only begotten Son, at the appointed time, exposed to all necessary suffering and finally applied at the cross. Through the inward operation (regeneration) by the holy Spirit, all the benefits of Christ are applied to believers.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Christ was sent into the world not to condemn but to save. It's true however, by Him being here does aggravate the condemnation of the unbelievers who reject Him. So, the second Person of the Trinity, in His own person took on human flesh to fulfill the work of redemption.
The Son is sent to take on human flesh, to redeem and intercede. The Holy Spirit to regenerate and reside in believers.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I’m still undecided and there are a couple here that make compelling arguments like @TibiasDad and @Ken Hamrick . I do believe in total depravity, I lean towards unconditional election , undecided on limited atonement but Calvinism makes more sense to me , I tip the scales in favor of irresistible grace but have not committed to that and I agree with preservation of the saints .

I do not know what that makes me but I’m sure there is a label for it haha. I’m 2/5 it looks like so far .

Thank you for asking and so far the calvinists have been the nicest to me but so has @TibiasDad and @Ken Hamrick .
Thanks for your reply.

To me I'd say you look like a Christian, and you act like one. That's the label I see.

Keep up the good work. God does not want us following something blindly, but to continue to seek the truth and know Him more. Your a good example of how a Christian should be.
Continue to run the race brother!

Blessings.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
In context with the discussion

Do you believe Jesus determined all the Pharisees and scribes to eternal damnation

for that is the type judgment being referred to

Further can you find any support for the idea Jesus came to earth for that purpose

for that is what Civic is trying to establish to avoid


John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
You should copy and paste John 12:47 as your sig.

But put your thoughts with it.
 
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