Is the Atonement sufficient for all ?

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TomFL

Guest
Still stalking and harrassing people, Tom?
So asking you to clarify your doctrine is stalking and harassment

You stated God choosing to send men to hell is not your doctrine

Calvin said it was

Who should we believe ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You stated God choosing to send men to hell is not your doctrine

Calvin said it was

No, He didn't.
He said God "determined" it.
Not that God "chose them for hell".

Who should we believe ?

I couldn't care less what you believe.
Now just because you respond to my posts (which are NOT directed towards you), does not mean that I'm going to waste my time having a discussion with you.

So don't "bump" me, since I've already decided not to waste my time.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No your apology does not address my argument

If you think otherwise show how

Faith is needed before life

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Faith needed before becoming a child of God

John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith is needed before a purified heart

Acts 15:9 (KJV)
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Faith is needed before quickening

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Notice remission of sins precedes quickening and our spiritual raising up with Christ is through faith

seeing as regeneration supplies new life, a purified heart , makes one a child of God, quickens

and all those are preceded by faith then faith precedes regeneration
There's no need to show you, we've been doing that for years...
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
You got it backwards John destroys your theology

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 12:47-48 (ESV)
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

John 3:14-17 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 4:42 (ESV)
42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

John 6:51 (ESV)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Your theology is a buffet, you pick and choose what you want. Don't forget to use your coupon.
 
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TomFL

Guest
No, He didn't.
He said God "determined" it.
Not that God "chose them for hell".

You mean he did not chose what he determined ?

Do you seriously think that will fly ?



I couldn't care less what you believe.
Now just because you respond to my posts (which are NOT directed towards you), does not mean that I'm going to waste my time having a discussion with you.

So don't "bump" me, since I've already decided not to waste my time.

Well guess what

Your wishes are not my command
 
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TomFL

Guest
Your theology is a buffet, you pick and choose what you want. Don't forget to use your coupon.
Another "response" which addresses nothing and substitutes personal insult for scriptural discourse

You got it backwards John destroys your theology

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Faith precedes life contrary to your theology

John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Those who receive Christ are regenerated that is made children of God

John 12:47-48 (ESV)
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Christ came to save the world - no unconditional rejection of some before the foundation of theearth

John 3:14-17 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Christ was given to the world see John 12:47 for definition of world - no limited atonement

John 4:42 (ESV)
42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

again no limited atonement

John 6:51 (ESV)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

again no limited atonement
 
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TomFL

Guest
Your theology is a buffet, you pick and choose what you want. Don't forget to use your coupon.
Another "response" which addresses nothing and substitutes personal insult for scriptural discourse

You got it backwards John destroys your theology

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Faith precedes life contrary to your theology

John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Those who receive Christ are regenerated that is made children of God

John 12:47-48 (ESV)
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Christ came to save the world - no unconditional rejection of some before the foundation of theearth

John 3:14-17 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Christ was given to the world see John 12:47 for definition of world - no limited atonement

John 4:42 (ESV)
42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

again no limited atonement

John 6:51 (ESV)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

again no limited atonement
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Rather it is your interpretation which is not accepted

Not only is it contrary to the context

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

which clearly shows some believe

The verse can notes two things

One without the Spirit can know the deeper hidden things in the mind of God

1 Corinthians 2:7 (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Two Those depending on human wisdom (the psychikos) find spiritual wisdom foolish

but you cannot assume everyone is depending on human wisdom

as we see some do believe

You ignore that imagining some unstated doctrine

further your interpretation is contrary to the whole of scripture

God's word says it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

According to your theology this is false



Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Again your theology turns this verse on its head

That is the problem -= you take verses strip them from their biblical context and read your theology into them

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Context and and your interpretations do not go together

just calling a person a false teacher does not address the whole of scripture

nor do false claims or silly rhetoric
You just proved my point 100 times over LOL
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
So again, you reject sola Scripture, and you cherry-pick specific human analogies which support your false theology, instead of responding to what SCRIPTURE teaches.

Let's try this again. Please try to actually ANSWER the questions this time.
A refusal to answer the questions will be an admission that your theology is false and unBiblical.
Since you see I'm not refusing to answer your questions, you must be the one who is unbiblical.

John 10:26 (KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 (KJV) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

1) Do you agree that the word, "because" is found in this verse?
[_] Yes
[_] No
Yes.

2) Do you agree that the word, "because", indicates "causation"?
[_] Yes
[_] No
Yes.

But just because they are not sheep does not imply that they were predeterminated to choose to be not sheep.

3) Do you agree that this verse is saying that being a sheep is the "cause" of believing?
[_] Yes
[_] No
[
Yes.

4) In your personal (and errant) theology,
how does a person "libertarianly" become a sheep?
Answer:
It doesn't say they became sheep. So followers must have merely been categorized as sheep. So your point is moot. You are the one with errant theology.

It doesn't say they HAD a "libertarian choice".
You are arguing the logical fallacy of "appeal to silence".
And it is silent whether the sheep had predetermined choice as well. So you have logical fallacy.

You keep dodging my questions,
you keep ASSUMING your theology,
but you think *I* "lost"?

You're funny! :D
Funny. Note that nothing was dodged. So you lose. 🙂

So, with silence on whether the sheep are libertarian or not, the natural inclination is to *assume* libertarianism, unless Scripture proves otherwise. Scripture doesn't say we can't have assumptions, as long as it doesn't contradict Scriptures.

So any time you're ready to address that verse, please let us know...
I did. Your turn.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You just proved my point 100 times over LOL
Laughable as you address nothing

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

which clearly shows some believe

The verse can notes two things

One without the Spirit can (not) know the deeper hidden things in the mind of God

1 Corinthians 2:7 (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Two Those depending on human wisdom (the psychikos) find spiritual wisdom foolish

but you cannot assume everyone is depending on human wisdom

as we see some do believe

You ignore that imagining some unstated doctrine

further your interpretation is contrary to the whole of scripture

God's word says it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

According to your theology this is false



Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Again your theology turns this verse on its head

That is the problem -= you take verses strip them from their biblical context and read your theology into them

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Context and and your interpretations do not go together

just calling a person a false teacher does not address the whole of scripture

nor do false claims or silly rhetoric
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Look Seth, you and Tom cannot get the hint, so I'll have to be blunt. I do not want to debate with you guys; you guys are clueless when it comes to these debates between Calvinism & Arminianism. So please stop posting with me, thanks.
If you respond to my posts I will most likely respond. But I also may respond to your posts so other posters can hear a different side from what you present. Just don't respond to me in either case, just assume it is meant for other posters
 
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TomFL

Guest
What this poster is admitting is that he does what he accuses Tom of, He excludes verses like what Tom posts when they do not align with his doctrine
He is not alone

Plainly a number of objections to Calvinist theology have gone unanswered

Calvinism and context near or far do not go together
 
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TomFL

Guest
Theo1689 said:

So again, you reject sola Scripture, and you cherry-pick specific human analogies which support your false theology, instead of responding to what SCRIPTURE teaches.

Let's try this again. Please try to actually ANSWER the questions this time.
A refusal to answer the questions will be an admission that your theology is false and unBiblical.

Wow so how many times have you admitted your theology is false and unbiblical for having refused an answer
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
He is not alone

Plainly a number of objections to Calvinist theology have gone unanswered

Calvinism and context near or far do not go together
I find it interesting that Calvinist speak about the necessity to consider context, but in practise they can completely ignore it.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What this poster is admitting is that he does what he accuses Tom of, He excludes verses like what Tom posts when they do not align with his doctrine

We have addressed ALL of Tom's proof-texts, MANY times over, so we re not "excluding verses" at all. This is simply a false accusation by you to mud-sling at Calvinists.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I find it interesting that Calvinist speak about the necessity to consider context, but in practise they can completely ignore it.

Another false accusation by you.
I doubt very much you can give ANY exmples to support your false claim.

What I suspect is that you we DO consider the context, but since YOU think there is a different "context" (which begs the question of whether YOU are understanding the text accurately), and we don't agree with YORU understanding, that might be the basis for your false accusaion that we "completely ignore it".

But guess what?
"Disagreeing" is NOT "ignoring".
 
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TomFL

Guest
We have addressed ALL of Tom's proof-texts, MANY times over, so we re not "excluding verses" at all. This is simply a false accusation by you to mud-sling at Calvinists.
Sorry you are fabricating

You refused to address a number of arguments

and cried harassment when your failure to respond was highlighted

your own words impeach your claim

and it has not been an isolated instance

Further others of your theology have likewise failed to address a number of arguments
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
We have addressed ALL of Tom's proof-texts, MANY times over, so we re not "excluding verses" at all. This is simply a false accusation by you to mud-sling at Calvinists.
No we just saw the evidence of what i am saying. Tom gave scrioture and it was discraded as being not the whole story.
So the point is, if you discrad partial truths from the word, then you are building on a faulty foundation
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No we just saw the evidence of what i am saying. Tom gave scrioture and it was discraded as being not the whole story.

Okay...
Saying "it is not the whole story" is a valid response.
And it does NOT equate to "rejecting Scripture", or "ignoring context".
Btw, what is "scrioture"?

So the point is, if you discrad partial truths from the word, then you are building on a faulty foundation

Sounds like you are criticizing Tom, since HE ws the one not taking into account "the whole story".
Btw, what does "discrad" mean?
 
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