Is the Atonement sufficient for all ?

Manfred

Well-known member
Obviously you do not know what an oxy moron is

If something is not conditioned by another factor it is arbitrary
Then you don't understand the conditioned factor is God who unconditionally elects those of His choosing.

Unconditional election does not mean God arbitrarily chooses people as if He does not know what He is doing.
 
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TomFL

Guest
You really cannot use a hermaneutic, and you are reduced to cherry pick and to not allow the Spirit to reveal the truth of scripture to you...
You choose to not believe God, not me.

When God says that knowing Him does not in any way depend on strife or will, then I believe Him unconditionally. (Rom)
You try and justify your unbelief.

If God says he will have mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion then I will believe that He has made vessels for honor and vessels for wrath. (Rom)
I don't have to try and explain it away by saying it is not applicable to all humans.

You are exposed as a false teacher, and you keep ignoring God's word, and you keep coming with false premises and then trying to force those false premises onto scripture.

When God says the gospel is hidden to all and revealed only to those whom the Son chooses, then I believe God, I will not make an effort like you do to make Him out a liar. (Matt)

When God says faith rests in the Power of God, I will believe Him when He says it rests in the power of God, unlike you who is desperate to try and change the context or even the meaning of the Faith resting in the Power of God to it not resting wholly in the power of God.
Once again you show you lack understanding

And ignore the historical background

Once again the reference is to Jews

You take passages like Romans which reference the Jews and their being judically hardened so that the gospel may be brought to the gentiles

and attempt to make it a normative process throughout all time ignoring the fact that we are clearly told why the Jews were cutoff and shown it was not unconditional as you would have it nor without remedy

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 11:14-24 (KJV)
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

you did the same with Matt ignoring the context

Matthew 11:16-25 (KJV)
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

you simply have no idea what you are talking about
 
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TomFL

Guest
Then you don't understand the conditioned factor is God who unconditionally elects those of His choosing.

Unconditional election does not mean God arbitrarily chooses people as if He does not know what He is doing.
God saves those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

unconditional election to salvation is a Calvinist fiction which does not appear anywhere in scripture
 

Manfred

Well-known member
God saves those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

unconditional election to salvation is a Calvinist fiction which does not appear anywhere in scripture
It does as shown.
You just choose to believe it is not applicable to all humans only to some and you cherry pick to remove context.
You are exposed as lacking faith and rejecting the Word of God as applicable to you, as it only aplies when it suits you.

As for your claim regarding preaching without the power of God being able to save, you would be against God and not for Him, false teacher.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Exactly!
And "God's power" includes:
1) God regenerating us;
2) God giving us the gift of faith.
I notice from time-to-time they don't realize what they are even saying. Like if a book were titled "Preach it on Sunday but debate against it Monday"...
 
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TomFL

Guest
It does as shown.
You just choose to believe it is not applicable to all humans only to some and you cherry pick to remove context.
You are exposed as lacking faith and rejecting the Word of God as applicable to you, as it only aplies when it suits you.

As for your claim regarding preaching without the power of God being able to save, you would be against God and not for Him, false teacher.
Sorry it has not been shown

God saves those that believe

That is a condition and it is not arbitrary

Acts 15:8-11 (KJV)
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

but is one standard

rather it is you who does not believe scripture

regarding your false claim the power of God was was working in/on /with Paul to bring forth the message

In similar manner the Spirit worked in/on/with the authors of scriptures to bring forth God's word

so your statement here

As for your claim regarding preaching without the power of God being able to save, you would be against God and not for Him, false teacher.

is contrary to fact and just more misrepresentation as is often seen in your posts

and is no part of my doctrine
 
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TomFL

Guest
Exactly!
And "God's power" includes:
1) God regenerating us;
2) God giving us the gift of faith.
Eisegesis as it is nowhere stated in the passage

even worse it is contrary to the word of God which shows faith precedes life - regeneration

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

further regeneration is shown to be preceded by remission of sin which is only granted upon faith

You reverse what God shows in his word
 

Manfred

Well-known member
define they
False teachers like yourself who cannot accept that faith rests in the Power of God.

False teachers like yourself who try and fit into the narrative that verses that say it does not rest in human wisdom or clever speech, actually means it does rest in human wisdom and clever speech.
 
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TomFL

Guest
False teachers like yourself who cannot accept that faith rests in the Power of God.

False teachers like yourself who try and fit into the narrative that verses that say it does not rest in human wisdom or clever speech, actually means it does rest in human wisdom and clever speech.
Sorry you are incompetent to determine what is false teaching

you are blinded by Gnostic-Manichean theology and are not even capable

of honestly extolling what was posted

No where have I ever stated it depends on human wisdom

You have fabricated throughout all your responses
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You have fabricated throughout all your responses
And your persistence that faith rests in the Power of God does not mean that faith rests in the power of God is what?

Your false teachings are so transparent.

Do you not teach that salvation does depend on human will and exertion, and that you can understand the Gospel without Spiritual discernment.

You keep flip flopping around and avoiding.
 
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TomFL

Guest
And your persistence that faith rests in the Power of God does not mean that faith rests in the power of God is what?
Your fabrication

It has been explained you many times the Spirit was working on Paul to bring the truth of the gospel

1 Corinthians 2:3-5 (KJV)
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.



Your false teachings are so transparent.

Do you not teach that salvation does depend on human will and exertion, and that you can understand the Gospel without Spiritual discernment.

You keep flip flopping around and avoiding.

More fabrication

There is no intrinsic value to faith that causes salvation

God saves

He saves based on the condition of faith

That is his decision and his act

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You just don't like scripture and prefer your theology
 
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TomFL

Guest
Your fabrication

It has been explained you many times the Spirit was working on Paul to bring the truth of the gospel

1 Corinthians 2:3-5 (KJV)
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.





More fabrication

There is no intrinsic value to faith that causes salvation

God saves

He saves based on the condition of faith

That is his decision and his act

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You just don't like scripture and prefer your theology
corrected version
 

Manfred

Well-known member
the Spirit was working on Paul to bring the truth of the gospel
This is nothing but your fabrication.

You want people to believe that faith rests in the Power of the Holy Spirit means Paul was used by the Spirit.

What a weak effort to try and change the actual word of God into your fantasies.

It is obvious that the Spirit indwelt Paul. Their faith was not resting in the fact that Paul was indwelt by the Spirit, but the scripture is clear that their faith rested in the POWER of the Spirit.

You are trying hard to say their faith did not rest in the Power of the Spirit.

So man up, if it did not rest in the power of the Spirit in what did it rest?? Their own power?

Come on false teacher. Does your faith rest in your own power?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
This is nothing but your fabrication.

You want people to believe that faith rests in the Power of the Holy Spirit means Paul was used by the Spirit.

What a weak effort to try and change the actual word of God into your fantasies.

It is obvious that the Spirit indwelt Paul. Their faith was not resting in the fact that Paul was indwelt by the Spirit, but the scripture is clear that their faith rested in the POWER of the Spirit.

You are trying hard to say their faith did not rest in the Power of the Spirit.

So man up, if it did not rest in the power of the Spirit in what did it rest?? Their own power?

Come on false teacher. Does your faith rest in your own power?
Maybe you have never heard about this but the verb form of faith can mean "to entrust yourself to"
This means it is something you must do, trust God, and that is faith for salvation.
Along with that the word/concept of faith is used at least three other ways in the Word
 
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TomFL

Guest
This is nothing but your fabrication.

You want people to believe that faith rests in the Power of the Holy Spirit means Paul was used by the Spirit.

What a weak effort to try and change the actual word of God into your fantasies.

It is obvious that the Spirit indwelt Paul. Their faith was not resting in the fact that Paul was indwelt by the Spirit, but the scripture is clear that their faith rested in the POWER of the Spirit.

You are trying hard to say their faith did not rest in the Power of the Spirit.

So man up, if it did not rest in the power of the Spirit in what did it rest?? Their own power?

Come on false teacher. Does your faith rest in your own power?
You apparently have reading difficulties

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Hello the hearers are not mentioned as receiving an anointing but Paul is

First you twist the scriptures

then you twist what others say

You just can't stand it that power resides in the gospel the word of God
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Do you know of a way to entrust yourself to God without choosing to?

Show is in the BIBLE where faith is a "choice".

As for me, God gave me faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc.), and because of the nature of faith, I necessarily believed.

Just out of curiosity, how old were you when you "chose" to beat your heart?
How old were you when you first "chose" to breathe?
 
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