Hi.1 Both have Jesus coming to earth to gather His elect.
2 Both have Jesus coming in clouds
3 Both have the sound of a trumpet
4 Both coming are with angels
For me both scriptures describes the same coming of Jesus
According to how you understand scripture the four gospel narratives must be wrong because they each tell the biblical story using different words.Hi.
Ok. Please provide the actual wording of the verses that show why "for you" .......
First off, it needs to be said that using only these two passages to deal with this is not a good practice. The entire Bible actually deals with this issue of God saving the righteous and judging the wicked, and making a distinction between them.
Mat 24:29-31 WEB 29 “But immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.Ok. According to Matthew,
Immediately after the suffering of those days...
I see nothing about suffering in Thessalonians.
In Thessalonians I read that he didn't want them to be grieved by those who had died in Christ.
In Matthew, the sun, moon and stars are darkened.
Thessalonians doesn't talk about this at all.
In Matthew, all the people of the earth see him coming in the clouds.
Thessalonians says nothing about everyone else.
In Matthew, all the tribes of the earth mourn.
Nothing in Thessalonians about this.
Over the past few years, I've been hearing more about the importance of the Jewish calendar with respect to the church, considering how the first 4 holy days of the church are Passover, Feast of unleavened bread, First fruits, Festival of weeks (Pentecos), were fulfilled in the church.
Everyone who is Jewish and was raised in their culture is acquainted with them.
The three remaining festivals are
Feast of Trumpets
Day of Atonement
Festival of Tabernacles.
Trumpets is Rosh Hashanah.
This day is curious because it's the end of the new moon.
They need to see when the sliver of the moon appears.
This requires two witnesses, so the day and the hour are not known.
So, please take these things into consideration as you work through this topic.
This requires more than a simplistic treatment.
the extraction of God's People from their times and space and situations is strewn throughout the bible.According to how you understand scripture the four gospel narratives must be wrong because they each tell the biblical story using different words.
If there were two second comings, wouldn't you think Jesus would have said so in the same place?the extraction of God's People from their times and space and situations is strewn throughout the bible.
Elijah (1 Kings)
Philip (Acts 8)
Paul (2 cor. 12)
So, to use only those two passages, when the bible is filled with descriptive passages where God pulls people out, to show them himself, and his purposes, limits your understanding to what you think you know.
Isaiah 26 talks about God pulling his people out. It reads like 1 thess 4.
there are not two second comings.If there were two second comings, wouldn't you think Jesus would have said so in the same place?
there are not two second comings.
there's not a second coming, or a third coming.
Jesus isn't coming back to earth in the rapture.
He's coming back to the earth in the second coming--- when he sets his foot on the Mt of Olives.
The rapture is when he's coming for his Bride.
He tells us that it'll come as a snare to all who dwell on the face of the earth.
He said that it'll be like a thief in the night.
Now... explain to me what the features of the second coming are.
How long is the period of time leading up to the second coming?
what is the event which initiates the period known as the great tribulation?
Who is the great tribulation directed toward?
What is the purpose of the great tribulation?
If the church (Jesus followers) is no longer under the wrath of God, why would we who follow Jesus experience his wrath?
What churches in the 7 letters of the Revelation are told they will be spared from the Tribulation period?
If the Tribulation period is for a specific period of time, has a specific beginning and a specific end, which actually ends at the return of Jesus, how does that work out that no one knows the day or hour, except for the Father?
If there was no rapture, why would Jesus tell us to always pray, so we may be accounted worthy to escape from the coming trouble that'll come on the earth, and to stand before the Son of Man? Luke 21:34-36
You're more than welcome to think you'll go through the tribulation. There are at least 2 of the seven churches listed in Revelation whose members will. But when Jesus actually gives us a means to escape it, why would you want to go through it?
According to Titus 2:11-14, we read that Grace teaches us how to be ready for Jesus.
According to 2 Peter 1:2-13, we read how we can be ready for Jesus, and what we should place our focus on, so we will be ready for Jesus.
According to Luke 21:34-36, Jesus tells us----
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
I'm not interested in sticking around for it. Not based on what I read in Revelation.
WHich version of the "Absolute Truth" would you like?? Eschatology, after all, is just another word for "Rank Speculation".1 Both have Jesus coming to earth to gather His elect.
2 Both have Jesus coming in clouds
3 Both have the sound of a trumpet
4 Both coming are with angels
For me both scriptures describes the same coming of Jesus
then you have nothing to worry about.Luke 21:34-36 is like those Christians in the church age of Philadelphia. It is a paradigm of the plagues in Egypt that didn't touch the children of Israel, but they had not left yet. A secret rapture is not scriptural. Who do you think are beheaded in the Great Tribulation? Christians from the church age type of Thyatira, Sardis and Laodecia. No other Gentiles will be saved during that time after the Antichrist has been revealed at the beginning of the GT. They will have received a strong delusion to follow after the Antichrist. Only Jews will newly come into the Church.
then you have nothing to worry about.
Just be ready, and you'll find out when it happens.
Jesus did after all tell us----
Occupy until I come.
For the rest of us, we'll keep studying the bible, and learning to focus on Jesus-- including the "secret" rapture that you poorly define.
And as a matter of fact, the plain statement of Jesus in Luke 21:34-36 saying that it'll come as a snare on all those who dwell on the earth, makes it pretty clear that it is a "secret" event.
Jesus said elsewhere--- it'll come as a thief in the night. If the homeowner had known what hour of the night the thief would come, he would've prepared for it.
So..... I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty "secret" to me.
Read the parable of the wedding, in Matthew 25.It will come as a thief in the night means that the unsaved will not expect His coming that every eye shall see. But if you believe in the secret rapture it will happen within the next two years if the 5th trumpet of Revelation 8 comes to pass in 2029.
Don't be rude and imply that I don't study the Bible and don't focus on Jesus. With that kind of pompous remark, are you sure YOU are ready?
Not everyone who goes to church is a born again Christian I'm afraid to say. This fact is why I mostly teach on sin, and don't get involved in secret raptures. If that is true, I will go then as I am always "ready." On one forum I belong to there is one person who believes in the secret rapture who says if you don't believe in the secret rapture you will be left behind. That doctrine is full of untruths and false silly assumptions.Read the parable of the wedding, in Matthew 25.
Even believers get caught off guard, and are not ready.
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
These 5 girls who got left behind were part of the wedding party. they were friends of the bride. They knew the format, structure, rules, etc..... they were not "unbelievers."
This is why we say that you cannot focus on a few verses and think you've got it dialed in.
God even tells us in Hosea 4:6--- my people perish because of the lack of knowledge.
He did not say--- people perish.
He said--- MY people perish.....
And lest you say--- that's the old testament, it's not for us, Paul tells us in Romans 15, and 1 Corinthians 10 that the things that were written, were written for our admonishing, and encouragement. We see a similar theme in Romans 4.
curious.... and yet here you are, arguing about "secret raptures."Not everyone who goes to church is a born again Christian I'm afraid to say. This fact is why I mostly teach on sin, and don't get involved in secret raptures. If that is true, I will go then as I am always "ready." On one forum I belong to there is one person who believes in the secret rapture who says if you don't believe in the secret rapture you will be left behind. That doctrine is full of untruths and false silly assumptions.
Do you have any biblical support for these ideas of yours?All I'm saying to you is, be ready NOW and don't wait as if you'll have a second chance if you are not already in the Church. Those Christians who are lukewarm with no oil, will pay for their apathy with their lives and will be martyred. Philadelphians will already be in spiritual white robes with full oil lamps, but on the earth and will be among "those who are alive and remain." Remain for what? The second coming, of course.
The GT is a parallel to Egypt, so if they didn't leave Egypt, AND THEN the plagues hit Egypt, the church will be on earth during the GT, and the Philadelphians will enjoy divine protection.
Obviously, off form. I just don't start these debates.curious.... and yet here you are, arguing about "secret raptures."
Apparently this is not the case.
And if you don't talk about "Secret raptures" why on earth are you here, talking about it?
You still haven't even described what a "secret" rapture is.
Do you have any biblical support for these ideas of yours?
If so, please provide them.
OR - more likely dies physically in place. What would God want with your physical body in Heaven?? We'll get a Spiritual body to take the place of this 'ol worn out mess. And then the news media can have a PARTY trying to explain the "Mysterious disease" that killed MILLIONS of people at the same time all over the world.Secret in Jesus not appearing, but everyone who is raptured simply disappears.
Yet you are the one who said you don't engage in discussion about this issue. Yet here you are, arguing about it.Obviously, off form. I just don't start these debates.
Secret in Jesus not appearing, but everyone who is raptured simply disappears.
Yep. The day will come, as we read in Zechariah.Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved
That's right. The apostasia will occur before the antichrist is revealed.2 Thes. 2:
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
See above.5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Yep. The unrepentant members of the church of thyatira will enter the judgment due sin on the world.Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
Exactly, the godly people who are following Jesus will not enter the judgment due sin on the world.Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Unrepentant people who at what point did not follow Jesus?Revelation 7:
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(They already had robes going INTO the GT, thus were not naked as unbelievers. But their robes were dirty with lukewarmness, and unrepentant sin. Or in the church but immersed in false doctrine and are naked.)
Right. Self-confident people who are religious, but think they have it all dialed in.
Yep. Jesus pointing out the need of the self-confident.
Where does it say gentile Christians?Revelation 12: 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman (Israel), that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring(Christian Gentiles), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
When I saw what was written, I had to say something. It is sin that will keep us from heaven, not when the rapture takes place - seven years before the second coming, (not!) or at the second coming. That is why I don't bother with it much. But I suspect you don't like what I had to say which is why you are belaboring my joining in. You look more than two years old, so act like it.Yet you are the one who said you don't engage in discussion about this issue. Yet here you are, arguing about it.
No. I believe the Word of God. Those going INTO the GT are already Christians, though lukewarm and sinners from Thyatira, Sardis and Laodecia type church ages. They are overcomers by the time the testing time (GT) ends, though dead. What you don't understand is the tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. It is testing.So, don't you think people are going to get saved during the tribulation?
Don't you know who the woman is that bares the child? It is Israel. The rest of her offspring are Christians who are the wild olive branches in Romans 11. Gentiles. The last 7 years are when the partial blindness is removed from national Israel and they accept their Messiah. No unsaved Gentiles will become saved during the GT.Where does it say gentile Christians?