Is the coming of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 different from His coming in Matthew 24:29-31

Timtofly

Member
Sorry, Tim, but this sounds like Calvinism. Did you ever repent, or were you just chosen and no conversion required?
How can the all having the ability to accept the Atonement, Calvinism? Calvinist deny the all and only claim a limited election.

Repentance is a step. You are making it the whole event without even accepting the Atonement. Being chosen has nothing to do with one's free will to accept the position. I do not acknowledge: that one can deny the call and still be used against their will, but that God will give the blessing to another.

Do you deny that God chose or called every single human to ever be conceived? If yes, that is Calvinism.

The whole world was elected. Free will allows all to reject that election.

I exercised my free will, repented of my sin, and accepted God's election. My vote was then 2 for life against Satan's 1 for death. Most people choose death, so God's 1 vote of election is defeated by 2 votes for Death.
 

Timtofly

Member
The 144,000 men will be proclaiming the gospel to national Israel only. No new Gentile converts will be made due to the strong delusion God has put on them to follow after the Antichrist. Those who come out of the GT will be the lukewarm Christians going into the GT. Read the letters to the seven church (ages). Rev. 2 and 3

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Romans 11:25-26
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved
The fullness of the Gentiles happens at the 6th Seal. The church is finished, complete and glorified, before the 144k are even sealed. There are no lukewarm Christians left. They are reprobate and headed for Death. Their names removed from the Lamb's book of life. They may try to show up at the wedding in rags, but will be escorted to Death.

The sheep are chosen, and they will have no choice in the matter. They cannot reject their future eternal life on earth. This is National Israel. The goats are those who think they are Israel, but are only goats. Only God knows who is who. The sheep and goats have no clue who they are, nor if they are a sheep or goat. That is my point of The Matthew 25 announcement of the Second Coming. It also happens before the Trumpets and God and the Lamb are present on earth at that time, cause that is what Jesus claims in Matthew 24 and 25.
 

Timtofly

Member
National Jews being saved during the GT will be part of the Church, just like the first Jews were. You are jumping the gun.
How can works be considered Atonement and part of the church? The church is elected by the Atonement. The sheep are chosen because God pointed to a past work, and the sheep or goats did not even know they had done any works. That is what those verses claim in my post. Matthew 25:31-46

The church is not going to rule ON EARTH. They may rule over the earth, but not on. Christ is currently not ruling on the earth, but is definitely now Lord over the earth. The millennium is not about the church. The last 1990 years was about the church. The church does not get a redo. What the church on earth does now, is it. Make it count now, or it will never count. The millennium is only for National Israel. Christ and Israel will rule the rest of the Nations from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

Only after the New Jerusalem comes in the NHNE, will the church return to earth.

The honeymoon is a Day in the Temple of God, while those on earth spend 1000 years with the Lord.
 

jamesh

Active member
Hi.
Ok. Please provide the actual wording of the verses that show why "for you" .......

First off, it needs to be said that using only these two passages to deal with this is not a good practice. The entire Bible actually deals with this issue of God saving the righteous and judging the wicked, and making a distinction between them.


Mat 24:29-31 WEB 29 “But immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​


1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​
Ok. According to Matthew,
Immediately after the suffering of those days...
I see nothing about suffering in Thessalonians.

In Thessalonians I read that he didn't want them to be grieved by those who had died in Christ.

In Matthew, the sun, moon and stars are darkened.
Thessalonians doesn't talk about this at all.

In Matthew, all the people of the earth see him coming in the clouds.
Thessalonians says nothing about everyone else.

In Matthew, all the tribes of the earth mourn.
Nothing in Thessalonians about this.

Over the past few years, I've been hearing more about the importance of the Jewish calendar with respect to the church, considering how the first 4 holy days of the church are Passover, Feast of unleavened bread, First fruits, Festival of weeks (Pentecos), were fulfilled in the church.
Everyone who is Jewish and was raised in their culture is acquainted with them.
The three remaining festivals are
Feast of Trumpets
Day of Atonement
Festival of Tabernacles.

Trumpets is Rosh Hashanah.


This day is curious because it's the end of the new moon.
They need to see when the sliver of the moon appears.
This requires two witnesses, so the day and the hour are not known.

So, please take these things into consideration as you work through this topic.
This requires more than a simplistic treatment.

You made this statement Steve, "First off, it needs to be said that using only these two passages to deal with this is not a good practice. The entire Bible actually deals with this issue of God saving the righteous and judging the wicked, and making a distinction between them." And I agree with you that the entire Bible needs to be considered.

You also said, "I see nothing about suffering in Thessalonians." Look at what 2 Thessalonians says at Chapter 1 starting at vs4, "therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith IN THE MIDST OF ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND AFFLICTIONS which you endure."

Vs5, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed YOU ARE SUFFERING." Vs6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

Now pay attention to vs7, "and to give you "relief/rest" to you who are afflicted and to us as well "WHEN" do the Saints get rest or relief? "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." Please read the rest of the verses from vs8-12 and notice specifically vs 10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints in that day," What day?

This is perfectly in line with Matthew 24:29-31 and with 1 Thessalonians 13-18. The Apostle Paul is backing what Jesus stated. I happen to be a "post-tribulationist" that believes we will go through the tribulation and I deny the pre-tribulationist view of the rapture. There are only two comings. One, when Jesus came in reference to sin and two His second coming in reference to deliverance/salvation as stated at Hebrews 9:28. Does this make sense?

In Him,
herman
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Hi.
Ok. Please provide the actual wording of the verses that show why "for you" .......

First off, it needs to be said that using only these two passages to deal with this is not a good practice. The entire Bible actually deals with this issue of God saving the righteous and judging the wicked, and making a distinction between them.


Mat 24:29-31 WEB 29 “But immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​


1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​
Ok. According to Matthew,
Immediately after the suffering of those days...
I see nothing about suffering in Thessalonians.

In Thessalonians I read that he didn't want them to be grieved by those who had died in Christ.

In Matthew, the sun, moon and stars are darkened.
Thessalonians doesn't talk about this at all.

In Matthew, all the people of the earth see him coming in the clouds.
Thessalonians says nothing about everyone else.

In Matthew, all the tribes of the earth mourn.
Nothing in Thessalonians about this.

Over the past few years, I've been hearing more about the importance of the Jewish calendar with respect to the church, considering how the first 4 holy days of the church are Passover, Feast of unleavened bread, First fruits, Festival of weeks (Pentecos), were fulfilled in the church.
Everyone who is Jewish and was raised in their culture is acquainted with them.
The three remaining festivals are
Feast of Trumpets
Day of Atonement
Festival of Tabernacles.

Trumpets is Rosh Hashanah.


This day is curious because it's the end of the new moon.
They need to see when the sliver of the moon appears.
This requires two witnesses, so the day and the hour are not known.

So, please take these things into consideration as you work through this topic.
This requires more than a simplistic treatment.

In Thessalonians Paul is talking to true Christians. But nominal Christians, or those who have false doctrines they are listening to and do not believe we, ourselves, need to be righteous and holy, just as long as Jesus was, WILL suffer in the Great Tribulation. If you read the letters Jesus wrote to the 7 churhes in Revelation 2 and 3, you will see that these are prophecies - revelations - of church history. The church of Philadelphia are true Christians, and they will be kept from the horrors of the tribulation. But Thyatira, Sardis and Laodecians will have to be martyred, the ultimate testing to prove themselves worthy.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
How can works be considered Atonement and part of the church? The church is elected by the Atonement. The sheep are chosen because God pointed to a past work, and the sheep or goats did not even know they had done any works. That is what those verses claim in my post. Matthew 25:31-46

The church is not going to rule ON EARTH. They may rule over the earth, but not on. Christ is currently not ruling on the earth, but is definitely now Lord over the earth. The millennium is not about the church. The last 1990 years was about the church. The church does not get a redo. What the church on earth does now, is it. Make it count now, or it will never count. The millennium is only for National Israel. Christ and Israel will rule the rest of the Nations from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

Only after the New Jerusalem comes in the NHNE, will the church return to earth.

The honeymoon is a Day in the Temple of God, while those on earth spend 1000 years with the Lord.
Works? What are you talking about? When the Jews become Christians, it is not going to be by works, anymore than it was for Gentiles.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Now pay attention to vs7, "and to give you "relief/rest" to you who are afflicted and to us as well "WHEN" do the Saints get rest or relief? "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." Please read the rest of the verses from vs8-12 and notice specifically vs 10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints in that day," What day?
Oh, oh! Are you talking about the Sabbath "day." I sure hope not.

Matthew 11:

Jesus Gives True Rest​

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am [f]gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You made this statement Steve, "First off, it needs to be said that using only these two passages to deal with this is not a good practice. The entire Bible actually deals with this issue of God saving the righteous and judging the wicked, and making a distinction between them." And I agree with you that the entire Bible needs to be considered.

that's what my point was here.

You also said, "I see nothing about suffering in Thessalonians." Look at what 2 Thessalonians says at Chapter 1 starting at vs4, "therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith IN THE MIDST OF ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND AFFLICTIONS which you endure."

Vs5, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed YOU ARE SUFFERING." Vs6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

I was referring to 1 Thessalonians. I'm aware of what 2 Thess. deals with. I was further emphasizing the limited perspective on the issue of the rapture, with JUST those two passages used in this op.

Now pay attention to vs7, "and to give you "relief/rest" to you who are afflicted and to us as well "WHEN" do the Saints get rest or relief? "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." Please read the rest of the verses from vs8-12 and notice specifically vs 10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints in that day," What day?
The Day Jesus comes.
Which just goes to further emphasize the problem with focusing on ONLY the Matt 24, and 1 Thess 4 passage.



This is perfectly in line with Matthew 24:29-31 and with 1 Thessalonians 13-18. The Apostle Paul is backing what Jesus stated. I happen to be a "post-tribulationist" that believes we will go through the tribulation and I deny the pre-tribulationist view of the rapture. There are only two comings. One, when Jesus came in reference to sin and two His second coming in reference to deliverance/salvation as stated at Hebrews 9:28. Does this make sense?

In Him,
herman
You're more than welcome to go through the Tribulation if that's what you really want.

I see it in Matthew 24, 1 thess 4, and elsewhere--- pretty much starting with God's dialogue with Abraham, regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, forward, that God will not judge the righteous with the wicked.


And I think this is the issue that people who believe the post/mid-trib/pre-wrath ideas. They conflate the judgment of God on the sin of the World, with the persecution of the church. The Bride of Jesus has been going through persecution since the passover week, leading up to the crucifixion. Jesus warned us of this. But it seems pretty clear that he said he would not judge us with the world.

Once this is understood, I think it's pretty clear that there's a distinction between the world, and the church.
Both the Church in Philadelphia, and I believe Sardis are spared the judgment due sin on the world. But all churches are engendered to make ready, so they won't be kicked to the proverbial curb.

Another passage which comes to mind.... 1 Peter 4:17-18

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now​
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"


While I'm not sure this is talking about the distinction in the rapture, it is a fundamental principle of God..... And I do think it ties back to the question Abraham asked God about judging the righteous with the wicked.
Our sin was judged on the cross. Thus, as Jesus said in John 3:18, we who believe on the name of the Son of God are no longer under condemnation. It's those who do not believe on the name of the Son of God who remain condemned, because they love their sin more than they love the truth.

Even Paul says in Romans 8:1, 4 that we are no longer under condemnation.
Which should raise the question of--- what is the condemnation we were previously under?
We were dead in our sin and trespass. We'd killed our spirits, and cut ourselves off from God.
Now, according to Rom. 8:30-31, God is for us. Nobody, or nothing can separate us from his love for us. Do you really believe that God is going to let his Son's Bride go through the judgment settled for the world? Seriously?
Furthermore, in Jeremiah, we read the phrase--- Time of Jacob's Trouble. I encourage you to read more about it. There's a distinction here. God deals specifically with Israel.

Luke 21:34-36 Jesus makes a rather curious statement which raises the question of--- if we're going through the Tribulation, why would he say that? that statement is a statement for a "get as ready as possible, because you really DO NOT want to be here.
He further tells us that the day will catch the world completely by surprise. It'll be as a snare to all who dwell on the earth.

Furthermore, the Tribulation starts..... once that's known, we can know the date of the Desolation, and the coming of Jesus to earth.
It's a matter of counting 1260, to 1290 days, as stated in Daniel, and as I recall, another passage.

Daniel is told, 1290 days. He's then told, blessed is he who waits another 45 days. I.e., the 1335th day.
I don't believe that the post-trib is correct. Too many things that Jesus said get thrown out, once you settle on that.

As I said, if you actually want to be here, I'm not going to argue with you. I hope you survive the judgment of the nations in Jerusalem, on the 1335th day, when God's Kingdom opens up.

I for one, and I encourage you to do likewise, am praying to always be accounted worthy to escape the things that are coming, and to stand before the Son of Man. If Jesus doesn't want us here.... don't force him to leave you here.

In Christ,
SteveB.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
In Thessalonians Paul is talking to true Christians.
Pretty much all the writings he's given were to true followers of Jesus.


But nominal Christians, or those who have false doctrines they are listening to and do not believe we, ourselves, need to be righteous and holy, just as long as Jesus was, WILL suffer in the Great Tribulation.
Ok. That's statement in Luke 21:34-36, and numerous passages elsewhere.


If you read the letters Jesus wrote to the 7 churhes in Revelation 2 and 3, you will see that these are prophecies - revelations - of church history. The church of Philadelphia are true Christians, and they will be kept from the horrors of the tribulation. But Thyatira, Sardis and Laodecians will have to be martyred, the ultimate testing to prove themselves worthy.
Not an argument here.
The passage of 1 Thess. 4:13-18.... it's referring to the people who fall into the Church of Philadelphia category. It would appear that Smyrna does too.
Then look more closely at Thyatira.
It's only those who have fallen/jumped into bed with Jezebel who will be cast into tribulation. Those who've avoided such sins, and not engaged in such practices will also be spared.

So, this whole "pre-trib" rapture bit..... it's for the people who are doing what Jesus said.
It's also for people who repent whatever sin is holding them back, and get ready, like Jesus told us in Luke 21:34-36.

therefore, it sounds to me like this whole "debate" we're having is a matter of semantics. But it's nice to see we're in agreement.

I never thought.... well, perhaps as a young believer I did (solely because I didn't know the scriptures)...... that I could live in sin, and then be yanked out of the tribulation before it happened.

Jesus said--- be ready, for your don't know what time I will come. but know this. Had the master of the house known at what hour the thief would come, he would've prepared for him.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Then look more closely at Thyatira.
It's only those who have fallen/jumped into bed with Jezebel who will be cast into tribulation. Those who've avoided such sins, and not engaged in such practices will also be spared.

So, this whole "pre-trib" rapture bit..... it's for the people who are doing what Jesus said.
It's also for people who repent whatever sin is holding them back, and get ready, like Jesus told us in Luke 21:34-36.

therefore, it sounds to me like this whole "debate" we're having is a matter of semantics. But it's nice to see we're in agreement.

I never thought.... well, perhaps as a young believer I did (solely because I didn't know the scriptures)...... that I could live in sin, and then be yanked out of the tribulation before it happened.

Jesus said--- be ready, for your don't know what time I will come. but know this. Had the master of the house known at what hour the thief would come, he would've prepared for him.

The first three church ages are the first century, the time of the martyrs under Roman emperors, and when paganism was introduced into the church to help the transition of the pagans into Christianity when paganism was outlawed.

The last four church ages are Thyatira/Catholic and Orthodox (Jezebel was of the Babylonian pagan goddess and godchild religion mixed into Christianity); Sardis/Luther, Calvin (name you are alive but you a dead) and Wesley (holiness-white robes); Philadelphia/keepers of the whole word of God and are Spirit-filled and gifted; Laodecia/nominal Cessationists that don't need the power of God, just rely on themselves.

Even Philadelphians are kept from the Tribulation, but they are true Christians who are alive an remain, just as the plagues hit Egypt and the children of Israel were "kept" safe.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The first three church ages are the first century, the time of the martyrs under Roman emperors, and when paganism was introduced into the church to help the transition of the pagans into Christianity when paganism was outlawed.

The last four church ages are Thyatira/Catholic and Orthodox (Jezebel was of the Babylonian pagan goddess and godchild religion mixed into Christianity); Sardis/Luther, Calvin (name you are alive but you a dead) and Wesley (holiness-white robes); Philadelphia/keepers of the whole word of God and are Spirit-filled and gifted; Laodecia/nominal Cessationists that don't need the power of God, just rely on themselves.

Even Philadelphians are kept from the Tribulation, but they are true Christians who are alive an remain, just as the plagues hit Egypt and the children of Israel were "kept" safe.
Those are indeed interpretations of the letters.

Don't let those interpretations restrict your understanding though.
They're not clearly defined as such, and as such, not laws that are unbreakable.
they were 7 actual churches in western (modern day) Turkey, which ultimately died out as history progressed through time. they had literal issues that caused literal problems for their literal lives in that literal period when Revelation was written by John.
 

jamesh

Active member
that's what my point was here.



I was referring to 1 Thessalonians. I'm aware of what 2 Thess. deals with. I was further emphasizing the limited perspective on the issue of the rapture, with JUST those two passages used in this op.


The Day Jesus comes.
Which just goes to further emphasize the problem with focusing on ONLY the Matt 24, and 1 Thess 4 passage.




You're more than welcome to go through the Tribulation if that's what you really want.

I see it in Matthew 24, 1 thess 4, and elsewhere--- pretty much starting with God's dialogue with Abraham, regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, forward, that God will not judge the righteous with the wicked.


And I think this is the issue that people who believe the post/mid-trib/pre-wrath ideas. They conflate the judgment of God on the sin of the World, with the persecution of the church. The Bride of Jesus has been going through persecution since the passover week, leading up to the crucifixion. Jesus warned us of this. But it seems pretty clear that he said he would not judge us with the world.

Once this is understood, I think it's pretty clear that there's a distinction between the world, and the church.
Both the Church in Philadelphia, and I believe Sardis are spared the judgment due sin on the world. But all churches are engendered to make ready, so they won't be kicked to the proverbial curb.

Another passage which comes to mind.... 1 Peter 4:17-18

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now​
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"


While I'm not sure this is talking about the distinction in the rapture, it is a fundamental principle of God..... And I do think it ties back to the question Abraham asked God about judging the righteous with the wicked.
Our sin was judged on the cross. Thus, as Jesus said in John 3:18, we who believe on the name of the Son of God are no longer under condemnation. It's those who do not believe on the name of the Son of God who remain condemned, because they love their sin more than they love the truth.

Even Paul says in Romans 8:1, 4 that we are no longer under condemnation.
Which should raise the question of--- what is the condemnation we were previously under?
We were dead in our sin and trespass. We'd killed our spirits, and cut ourselves off from God.
Now, according to Rom. 8:30-31, God is for us. Nobody, or nothing can separate us from his love for us. Do you really believe that God is going to let his Son's Bride go through the judgment settled for the world? Seriously?
Furthermore, in Jeremiah, we read the phrase--- Time of Jacob's Trouble. I encourage you to read more about it. There's a distinction here. God deals specifically with Israel.

Luke 21:34-36 Jesus makes a rather curious statement which raises the question of--- if we're going through the Tribulation, why would he say that? that statement is a statement for a "get as ready as possible, because you really DO NOT want to be here.
He further tells us that the day will catch the world completely by surprise. It'll be as a snare to all who dwell on the earth.

Furthermore, the Tribulation starts..... once that's known, we can know the date of the Desolation, and the coming of Jesus to earth.
It's a matter of counting 1260, to 1290 days, as stated in Daniel, and as I recall, another passage.

Daniel is told, 1290 days. He's then told, blessed is he who waits another 45 days. I.e., the 1335th day.
I don't believe that the post-trib is correct. Too many things that Jesus said get thrown out, once you settle on that.

As I said, if you actually want to be here, I'm not going to argue with you. I hope you survive the judgment of the nations in Jerusalem, on the 1335th day, when God's Kingdom opens up.

I for one, and I encourage you to do likewise, am praying to always be accounted worthy to escape the things that are coming, and to stand before the Son of Man. If Jesus doesn't want us here.... don't force him to leave you here.

In Christ,
SteveB.
What's with the "snide" remark you made, "You're more than welcome to go through the Tribulation if that's what you really want." No one in their right mind wants to go through the tribulation. I'm just presenting my view point based on the Scriptures which of course you did not address. I'm specifically referring to Hebrews 9:28.

I believe the starter of this thread used this verse as well. Moreover, I only gave you "thumbnail" of what I believe about the post-trib view. I have more in my "arsenal." I use to buy in to the rapture teaching oh about 58 years or so ago. And after further study with an open mind I changed my position. I attended Calvary Chapel Churches practically all my life and Chuck Smith always taught the rapture of the church.

Also, your entitled to your position just as I am and this does not mean we should fight as to who is right or wrong. The good news is the fact that Jesus is coming for His church and that's all that counts. The persons who started the whole thing were the disciples at Matthew 24:3 where Jesus said the following.

"And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE WORLD/AGE?" Jesus then goes on to explain things that will happen from vs4 through 14.

At vs15 Jesus says, "Therefore. Therefore means, "for that reason; consequently, because of that." So therefore when you see the abomination of desolation (the anti-christ) which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE, (let the reader understand)." Understand what? It's time to get out of "Dodge," verses 16-28.

Matthew 24:29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days The Sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give it's light etc. Vs30, "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky etc. Vs31, "Then He/Jesus will send forth His angels who will gather His elect etc.

So tell me Steve, from the above which I outlined, "WHEN does the rapture of the church take place? Where are you going to "place" it? Remember the question? "And of the end of the world/age." I can bring to bear more verses from the NT but will stop for now.

In Him,
herman
 

jamesh

Active member
Oh, oh! Are you talking about the Sabbath "day." I sure hope not.

Matthew 11:

Jesus Gives True Rest​

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am [f]gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Excuse me Lady. Don't you bother reading what somebody says before responding "willy-nilly?" There's nothing at 2 Thessalonians 1:1-12 about the Sabbath day. The "rest/relief" that Paul is talking about is what Christians will get when Jesus returns, vs10. Read first with understanding and then respond. :eek:

In Him,
herman
 

Timtofly

Member
Furthermore, the Tribulation starts..... once that's known, we can know the date of the Desolation, and the coming of Jesus to earth.
It's a matter of counting 1260, to 1290 days, as stated in Daniel, and as I recall, another passage.
No one is going to know the day or hour, when Jesus comes. The tribulation already started, and no one even noticed.

No one even agrees on what the tribulation consists of.
 

Timtofly

Member
Works? What are you talking about? When the Jews become Christians, it is not going to be by works, anymore than it was for Gentiles.
There is no time for the church other than now. The church stops at the Second Coming.

After the Second Coming is the harvest of Jews, and not into the church.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What's with the "snide" remark you made, "You're more than welcome to go through the Tribulation if that's what you really want." No one in their right mind wants to go through the tribulation. I'm just presenting my view point based on the Scriptures which of course you did not address. I'm specifically referring to Hebrews 9:28.

It's not snide. I simply don't argue with people who are convinced they are right.
I'll present my views, and why I believe them. It's not my job to convince people they're wrong and I'm right.
When it comes to biblical matters, that's job of the Holy Spirit.
I've been talking to people about Jesus for a very long time. I learned a long time ago that we all have to choose.
You clearly stated that you believe in the post tribulation rapture. I showed just a few passages on why I think it's wrong.
The community of Jesus followers I've been engaged with for a long time now have actually gone through the process of describing each apocalyptic narrative.
Pre, mid, post, tribulation, as well as pre, post, and amillennial views, and then explained why they acknowledge the premillennial, pretrib rapture as the biblical view.

I stated that if you're convinced that you're right, then have fun with that.

So, if you actually think it was a snide comment, I apologize. It just made sense to me that you are looking forward to experiencing it.

I believe the starter of this thread used this verse as well. Moreover, I only gave you "thumbnail" of what I believe about the post-trib view. I have more in my "arsenal." I use to buy in to the rapture teaching oh about 58 years or so ago. And after further study with an open mind I changed my position. I attended Calvary Chapel Churches practically all my life and Chuck Smith always taught the rapture of the church.
I've attended Calvary chapel since I was first a believer in 1977. I was 17. Chuck always promoted a pretrib view, and was quite detailed in why he did not believe in the mid, or post tribulation view.
I've since had plenty of time away from him and other pretribbers to consider all the views.

As stated, I think the problem is what the tribulation period consists of.
It's not a time for saints. It's a time for God to grab a hold of Israel and judge the world for their sin.
Looking at the passages of the old testament and their correlaries in the new testament, God is working on Israel to get them to repent and believe Jesus.
In the Revelation, it's pretty clear too that God is shaking people up to give them the last chance to repent, prior to their damnation. Those who repent and die are the ones who come out of the tribulation and are dressed in white.
Those who repent and survive the tribulation are the sheep of Matthew 25's judgment of the nations parable.
Those who take the Mark of the beast are damned, and without hope.
Those who don't repent and survive the tribulation will be the goats of Matthew 25.


Also, your entitled to your position just as I am and this does not mean we should fight as to who is right or wrong. The good news is the fact that Jesus is coming for His church and that's all that counts. The persons who started the whole thing were the disciples at Matthew 24:3 where Jesus said the following.
Thank you, but I'm not looking for a position, anywhere other than under the cross, as I'm guessing you are.
Our being followers of Jesus is not a competition for who's right and who's left behind. It's a simple issue of obedience to the cross and Jesus.
He's made it pretty clear that he doesn't want us to be left behind here on earth during the worst possible period of human history.



"And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE WORLD/AGE?" Jesus then goes on to explain things that will happen from vs4 through 14.

At vs15 Jesus says, "Therefore. Therefore means, "for that reason; consequently, because of that." So therefore when you see the abomination of desolation (the anti-christ) which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE, (let the reader understand)." Understand what? It's time to get out of "Dodge," verses 16-28.

Matthew 24:29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days The Sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give it's light etc. Vs30, "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky etc. Vs31, "Then He/Jesus will send forth His angels who will gather His elect etc.

So tell me Steve, from the above which I outlined, "WHEN does the rapture of the church take place? Where are you going to "place" it? Remember the question? "And of the end of the world/age." I can bring to bear more verses from the NT but will stop for now.

In Him,
herman
Here's a question for you.

Why do you think that those passages are the sum total for defining when Jesus comes for his Bride?
Why are those few passages all there is to give us the necessary information we need to be ready to go?

Seems like the 5 virgins were caught off guard because they didn't keep enough oil on hand, and wound up making a mess for themselves because they had to go to the market to buy some oil. By the time they were ready, it was too late for them and they were excluded from attending the wedding.

So.... no. I'm not convinced that you have provided the sufficient information to show that Jesus won't come for his bride and take her away to get married.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No one is going to know the day or hour, when Jesus comes. The tribulation already started, and no one even noticed.

No one even agrees on what the tribulation consists of.
Ok. Let's do it this way.
What is the key event for the start of the tribulation period?

The bible actually tells us. So please tell me what that event is.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Those are indeed interpretations of the letters.

Don't let those interpretations restrict your understanding though.
They're not clearly defined as such, and as such, not laws that are unbreakable.
they were 7 actual churches in western (modern day) Turkey, which ultimately died out as history progressed through time. they had literal issues that caused literal problems for their literal lives in that literal period when Revelation was written by John.
They were three-fold interpretations.

1. Literal churches (but not all the churches of the 1st century.
2. Type of Christians (every church age has martyrs)
3. Prophecy of the history of the Church and New Covenant.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
What's with the "snide" remark you made, "You're more than welcome to go through the Tribulation if that's what you really want." No one in their right mind wants to go through the tribulation.
You're right, it is Tribulation. What you don't understand is that it is not God's "wrath." The Tribulation precedes God's wrath.

Excuse me Lady. Don't you bother reading what somebody says before responding "willy-nilly?" There's nothing at 2 Thessalonians 1:1-12 about the Sabbath day. The "rest/relief" that Paul is talking about is what Christians will get when Jesus returns, vs10. Read first with understanding and then respond. :eek:

In Him,
herman

I read the whole thing, but was concerned that someone was trying to make another weird point as to the Sabbath DAY as our only rest. This site doesn't give the denomination of the posters, nor their age or anything pertinent to who we are addressing.
 
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