Is the coming of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 different from His coming in Matthew 24:29-31

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
You clearly stated that you believe in the post tribulation rapture. I showed just a few passages on why I think it's wrong.
Really? I never read anything that points to a pre-second coming rapture, if that is what you are referring to. Just because the Church goes through the Tribulation doesn't mean that they will all be martyred. Some/Philadelphians will be kept safe. While others have the opportunity to overcome. But NO new Gentiles will be saved inside the GT. That is fiction, and why there is no pre-trib. rapture. It just isn't scriptural, nor is there a complete teaching that includes both. Sorry, but you are involved in wishful thinking.

Only national Jews will all be saved during that time.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
They were three-fold interpretations.

1. Literal churches (but not all the churches of the 1st century.
Correct. I was taught that too.

2. Type of Christians (every church age has martyrs)
Ok. Um..... let's see...
Types of christians....
7 churches, 7 different types of people who claim the name of Jesus.
Ephesians, highly orthodox, but lacking love.
Smyrna, an oppressed church who has experienced great suffering and has a poverty-based mentality, not recognizing God's provisions for their needs.

Pergamum, a church that is corrupted by seriously bad doctrine, but has some faithful members who are not bound by the lies that have trapped others.

Thyatira, a church bound by idolatry and apparently sexual immorality. Has a false teacher who promotes such problems, but there are many people who are not polluted with those problems.

Sardis, a church who is a church in name only. Deader than a doornail. But one who Jesus takes seriously enough to warn them, and give them opportunity to rectify their state.

Philadelphia, the church who, in spite of troubles, has stood strong. Not one bad comment about them. (Apparently the one church every single church claims to be, and all others are some other church and are weaker than that particular church community.)

Laodecea, a rather curious church, in that they appear to be self-confident and think they have it all dialed in. Sadly, their self-confidence is the very problem. It's so bad, that Jesus is standing outside knocking on the door asking anyone to invite him in.
And to those who do, he promises to sit down with Jesus on his throne.

3. Prophecy of the history of the Church and New Covenant.
Hmm.....
Various church experiences, cultures, and practices down through church history. Some have viewed this as different church ages, as in the first age of the church, globally, is ephesus. Highly orthodox, but lacking love.
The next age, the next, etc.... through all 7 epochs. Each epoch the church global has characteristics matching the 7 churches in Revelation.

And of course, we're in the Philadelphia era now. (Ever notice that nobody ever wants to admit to being in any other age, or be any other church grouping?)

There's yet another age-grouping of the church..... we each, at different times in our lives experience what the 7 churches experienced, in our individual lives, over the course of our lives. And not in any specific order. It's kind of like walking through life, in and out, up and down, forward and backward, left to right and back. Most of the time we don't even realize what we are doing.

And the goal is always to get back on track with Jesus, before he comes, or we die, and enter eternity.

So....
These are what I've been taught over the years regarding the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
I'm sure that I'll hear more as I yet grow older. I'm thinking I have another 20+/- years of learning.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
But first a great falling away.
There is that, but that's a precursor, not the key event.
Daniel 9.
A treaty with Israel, to rebuild the temple, and re-establish animal sacrifices and offerings. There's an agreement for 7 years. In the middle of the 7 years, they break the agreement and the world leader who made the agreement stands in the Holy place, declaring himself God.
2 Thessalonians 2. And the desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet.
It's at this point where Israel recognizes that Jesus was their Messiah all along. Zechariah 12:10, a Spirit of grace and supplication is poured out....
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Really? I never read anything that points to a pre-second coming rapture, if that is what you are referring to. Just because the Church goes through the Tribulation doesn't mean that they will all be martyred. Some/Philadelphians will be kept safe. While others have the opportunity to overcome. But NO new Gentiles will be saved inside the GT. That is fiction, and why there is no pre-trib. rapture. It just isn't scriptural, nor is there a complete teaching that includes both. Sorry, but you are involved in wishful thinking.

Only national Jews will all be saved during that time.
Ok. People who have been pastoring the churches I've attended for 43 years have been teaching us this, and driving home the point of us reading the bible and studying it, assiduously. 2 Timothy 2:15, Proverbs 29:18.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The unveiling of the Antichrist.
What does 2 Thessalonians 2 say must take place prior to his unveiling?

That which restrains must first be taken away.
Who is he who restrains?
Every bible study I've seen on this said that it's the Holy Spirit who is restraining the man of perdition. So, if the Holy Spirit is removed from the world, where does that leave the church of Jesus?
A bride without her seal? Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5.
We who follow Jesus are sealed by the Holy Spirit. He is our down payment, our pledge, the deposit of our inheritance.

According to Romans 11:29, the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

So, why would God remove the Holy Spirit and leave his son's bride behind?
 
Hi.
Ok. Please provide the actual wording of the verses that show why "for you" .......

First off, it needs to be said that using only these two passages to deal with this is not a good practice. The entire Bible actually deals with this issue of God saving the righteous and judging the wicked, and making a distinction between them.


Mat 24:29-31 WEB 29 “But immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​


1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​
Ok. According to Matthew,
Immediately after the suffering of those days...
I see nothing about suffering in Thessalonians.

In Thessalonians I read that he didn't want them to be grieved by those who had died in Christ.

In Matthew, the sun, moon and stars are darkened.
Thessalonians doesn't talk about this at all.

In Matthew, all the people of the earth see him coming in the clouds.
Thessalonians says nothing about everyone else.

In Matthew, all the tribes of the earth mourn.
Nothing in Thessalonians about this.

Over the past few years, I've been hearing more about the importance of the Jewish calendar with respect to the church, considering how the first 4 holy days of the church are Passover, Feast of unleavened bread, First fruits, Festival of weeks (Pentecos), were fulfilled in the church.
Everyone who is Jewish and was raised in their culture is acquainted with them.
The three remaining festivals are
Feast of Trumpets
Day of Atonement
Festival of Tabernacles.

Trumpets is Rosh Hashanah.


This day is curious because it's the end of the new moon.
They need to see when the sliver of the moon appears.
This requires two witnesses, so the day and the hour are not known.

So, please take these things into consideration as you work through this topic.
This requires more than a simplistic treatment.
THIS was refreshing! By all means feel free to talk more Steve while I research these topics from your post. :geek:
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Smyrna, an oppressed church who has experienced great suffering and has a poverty-based mentality, not recognizing God's provisions for their needs.
This one is wrong. They are rich in their trust in God. There is nothing wrong said about them. So your statement of not recognizing God's provisions for their needs needs to be rethought.
Ephesians, highly orthodox, but lacking love.
"and that you cannot bear those who are evil."

I would not use the term "orthodox" as that is now a denomination who this does not apply anymore. Today, they don't believe a true Christian can be sinless, as in born again. 1 John 3:9.

Pergamum, a church that is corrupted by seriously bad doctrine, but has some faithful members who are not bound by the lies that have trapped others.
I agree. The Desposyni were still alive and leaders of the true Church. However, Constantine started this church age and compromised the Roman Church (enemies of the Desposyni) with paganism (where Satan dwells). The cultish Gnostics with their warped views of grace now held to the sexual sins of the Nicolaitans.

Thyatira, a church bound by idolatry and apparently sexual immorality. Has a false teacher who promotes such problems, but there are many people who are not polluted with those problems.

It really got bad in the next church age, Thyatira, when Christianity became the state religion, and paganism was outlawed. So they took all the pagan temples and garb and "Christianized" it to help the pagans transition to Christianity with familiar things to them, like robes, temples, hats, and the Babylonian goddess and godchild where the mother is revered to the extreme. Like the Roman Venus and Cupid. Jezebel, wife of Ahab, was a high-priestess of this Babylonian mystery religion of the mother and child gods.

Sardis, a church who is a church in name only. Deader than a doornail. But one who Jesus takes seriously enough to warn them, and give them opportunity to rectify their state.

Yes, and I see a bit of this heresy of the Nicolaitans taught at the start of the Reformation also, which is why Jesus said of Sardis, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Today, with everyone having access to every version of the Bible, it amazes me that we are still blind to this heresy and that the warped "grace" definition has infiltrated most Protestant denominations, save a handful of holiness groups, one started during the Reformation by John Wesley.

Philadelphia, the church who, in spite of troubles, has stood strong. Not one bad comment about them. (Apparently the one church every single church claims to be, and all others are some other church and are weaker than that particular church community.)

It is evident that this denominational group kept ALL the covenant of the New Testament, so are not Cessationists who want nothing to do with the power of the baptism of the Spirit, nor the gifts of the Spirit. But not even those denominations who do, like Pentecostals, still are warped by the common heresy on grace. I think the true Philadelphians are a small group indeed. "And few there are that find it."

Laodecea, a rather curious church, in that they appear to be self-confident and think they have it all dialed in. Sadly, their self-confidence is the very problem. It's so bad, that Jesus is standing outside knocking on the door asking anyone to invite him in.
And to those who do, he promises to sit down with Jesus on his throne.

Yes, I think Romans 8:9 says it all. "9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

The last four church ages overlap and go to the second coming of Christ.

Thyatira - RCC and Orthodox
Sardis - Reformed/dead; Wesley/alive and in white robes.
Philadelphia - Spirit (latter rain)
Laodecia - Cessationists

So I believe we have been in Laodecia for some time, and the beginning of the GT is right around the corner. When you subtract 7 years of Tribulation from 2029 that is 2022. 2029 could be the fulfilling of Revelation 8, the 5th trumpet. Check out NASA 2029 asteroid. Personally, I believe this event will hit the earth on the shoreline of California/Mexico as calculated by NASA. That will set off great earthquakes and volcanoes, even our super-volcano, Yellowstone.

Nice discussing this with you.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
There is that, but that's a precursor, not the key event.
Daniel 9.
A treaty with Israel, to rebuild the temple, and re-establish animal sacrifices and offerings. There's an agreement for 7 years. In the middle of the 7 years, they break the agreement and the world leader who made the agreement stands in the Holy place, declaring himself God.
2 Thessalonians 2. And the desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet.
It's at this point where Israel recognizes that Jesus was their Messiah all along. Zechariah 12:10, a Spirit of grace and supplication is poured out....

But that is all done by the Antichrist, so his unveiling comes first before any decrees or treaties.

As for Israel, you are correct. All Israel will be saved. But no new Gentile converts are saved during this time. The fulness of the Gentiles was complete at the beginning of the GT, and God will put a strong delusion on all those who did not repent when they had the chance. They were never in the Church. But nominal Christians will have the opportunity to overcome as the last four letters declare. Note in Revelation 7, they "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb." They were not naked as the unsaved. They already had robes, but had soiled them with sin. The Philadelphians are kept safe and will endure to the end.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
What does 2 Thessalonians 2 say must take place prior to his unveiling?

That which restrains must first be taken away.
Who is he who restrains?
Every bible study I've seen on this said that it's the Holy Spirit who is restraining the man of perdition. So, if the Holy Spirit is removed from the world, where does that leave the church of Jesus?
A bride without her seal? Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5.
We who follow Jesus are sealed by the Holy Spirit. He is our down payment, our pledge, the deposit of our inheritance.

According to Romans 11:29, the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

So, why would God remove the Holy Spirit and leave his son's bride behind?
No, it is not the Holy Spirit who is needed to save Israel, so I agree.

National Israel has been partially blinded, and that blindness must be removed. By whom? Every nation has an arch angel over them. Israel's is Michael and we see in the Book of Daniel. All the events pertaining to their time of salvation and the Great Tribulation will be orchestrated by Michael.

Who were the first Christians? Jews. Gentiles are merely grafted in until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, and then all Israel will be saved. During the GT, national Israel will come into the CHURCH/BRIDE OF CHRIST, so it will still be here. Remember, during the plagues of Egypt, the Jews were kept safe, but they were still in Egypt. That is a paradigm to the GT.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Ok. People who have been pastoring the churches I've attended for 43 years have been teaching us this, and driving home the point of us reading the bible and studying it, assiduously. 2 Timothy 2:15, Proverbs 29:18.

I know what you mean. Frankly, I get bored with the churches today when even I know more than the pastors!
 

SteveB

Well-known member
This one is wrong. They are rich in their trust in God. There is nothing wrong said about them. So your statement of not recognizing God's provisions for their needs needs to be rethought.

8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’


Looks pretty clear to me they viewed themselves as poor and were oppressed (which is what the word used in the greek, which gets translated as persecuted is). And I never said there was anything wroung, nor that Jesus had rebuked them.

"and that you cannot bear those who are evil."

I would not use the term "orthodox" as that is now a denomination who this does not apply anymore. Today, they don't believe a true Christian can be sinless, as in born again. 1 John 3:9.
When I say-- highly orthodox, I'm referring to what Jesus said about them. They appear to have had all their doctrine, and practices dialed in, yet they left their first love.


I agree. The Desposyni were still alive and leaders of the true Church. However, Constantine started this church age and compromised the Roman Church (enemies of the Desposyni) with paganism (where Satan dwells). The cultish Gnostics with their warped views of grace now held to the sexual sins of the Nicolaitans.



It really got bad in the next church age, Thyatira, when Christianity became the state religion, and paganism was outlawed. So they took all the pagan temples and garb and "Christianized" it to help the pagans transition to Christianity with familiar things to them, like robes, temples, hats, and the Babylonian goddess and godchild where the mother is revered to the extreme. Like the Roman Venus and Cupid. Jezebel, wife of Ahab, was a high-priestess of this Babylonian mystery religion of the mother and child gods.



Yes, and I see a bit of this heresy of the Nicolaitans taught at the start of the Reformation also, which is why Jesus said of Sardis, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Today, with everyone having access to every version of the Bible, it amazes me that we are still blind to this heresy and that the warped "grace" definition has infiltrated most Protestant denominations, save a handful of holiness groups, one started during the Reformation by John Wesley.



It is evident that this denominational group kept ALL the covenant of the New Testament, so are not Cessationists who want nothing to do with the power of the baptism of the Spirit, nor the gifts of the Spirit. But not even those denominations who do, like Pentecostals, still are warped by the common heresy on grace. I think the true Philadelphians are a small group indeed. "And few there are that find it."



Yes, I think Romans 8:9 says it all. "9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

The last four church ages overlap and go to the second coming of Christ.

Thyatira - RCC and Orthodox
Sardis - Reformed/dead; Wesley/alive and in white robes.
Philadelphia - Spirit (latter rain)
Laodecia - Cessationists

So I believe we have been in Laodecia for some time, and the beginning of the GT is right around the corner. When you subtract 7 years of Tribulation from 2029 that is 2022. 2029 could be the fulfilling of Revelation 8, the 5th trumpet. Check out NASA 2029 asteroid. Personally, I believe this event will hit the earth on the shoreline of California/Mexico as calculated by NASA. That will set off great earthquakes and volcanoes, even our super-volcano, Yellowstone.

Nice discussing this with you.
Well, if things get bad in '29, I suppose we'll get to see.
HAving sat under a really great teacher in my early days, and seeing him get the rapture dates wrong, numerous times, I'm in the "occupy 'til I come" mode, and learning what it means to do that. I figure if I'm properly occupied, when the day comes, I'll be gone.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Looks pretty clear to me they viewed themselves as poor and were oppressed (which is what the word used in the greek, which gets translated as persecuted is). And I never said there was anything wroung, nor that Jesus had rebuked them

It is not wrong to be poor. Is that what you think? Are you in the prosperity movement?

I still say Smyrna did not have anything wrong said about them.


When I say-- highly orthodox, I'm referring to what Jesus said about them. They appear to have had all their doctrine, and practices dialed in, yet they left their first love.

Yes, that is why Paul commanded to not grieve or worse, quench the Holy Spirit. Love is a fruit of the Spirit.

We must continue to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

Well, if things get bad in '29, I suppose we'll get to see.
HAving sat under a really great teacher in my early days, and seeing him get the rapture dates wrong, numerous times, I'm in the "occupy 'til I come" mode, and learning what it means to do that. I figure if I'm properly occupied, when the day comes, I'll be gone.

Me too. But we have 7 years of watching the Antichrist and the other horsemen fulfill Scripture, then we can be sure that in 2029 it will NOT be a near miss. I hope you won't be too disillusioned to find you are still here during the GT.
 

jamesh

Active member
It's not snide. I simply don't argue with people who are convinced they are right.
I'll present my views, and why I believe them. It's not my job to convince people they're wrong and I'm right.
When it comes to biblical matters, that's job of the Holy Spirit.
I've been talking to people about Jesus for a very long time. I learned a long time ago that we all have to choose.
You clearly stated that you believe in the post tribulation rapture. I showed just a few passages on why I think it's wrong.
The community of Jesus followers I've been engaged with for a long time now have actually gone through the process of describing each apocalyptic narrative.
Pre, mid, post, tribulation, as well as pre, post, and amillennial views, and then explained why they acknowledge the premillennial, pretrib rapture as the biblical view.

I stated that if you're convinced that you're right, then have fun with that.

So, if you actually think it was a snide comment, I apologize. It just made sense to me that you are looking forward to experiencing it.


I've attended Calvary chapel since I was first a believer in 1977. I was 17. Chuck always promoted a pretrib view, and was quite detailed in why he did not believe in the mid, or post tribulation view.
I've since had plenty of time away from him and other pretribbers to consider all the views.

As stated, I think the problem is what the tribulation period consists of.
It's not a time for saints. It's a time for God to grab a hold of Israel and judge the world for their sin.
Looking at the passages of the old testament and their correlaries in the new testament, God is working on Israel to get them to repent and believe Jesus.
In the Revelation, it's pretty clear too that God is shaking people up to give them the last chance to repent, prior to their damnation. Those who repent and die are the ones who come out of the tribulation and are dressed in white.
Those who repent and survive the tribulation are the sheep of Matthew 25's judgment of the nations parable.
Those who take the Mark of the beast are damned, and without hope.
Those who don't repent and survive the tribulation will be the goats of Matthew 25.



Thank you, but I'm not looking for a position, anywhere other than under the cross, as I'm guessing you are.
Our being followers of Jesus is not a competition for who's right and who's left behind. It's a simple issue of obedience to the cross and Jesus.
He's made it pretty clear that he doesn't want us to be left behind here on earth during the worst possible period of human history.




Here's a question for you.

Why do you think that those passages are the sum total for defining when Jesus comes for his Bride?
Why are those few passages all there is to give us the necessary information we need to be ready to go?

Seems like the 5 virgins were caught off guard because they didn't keep enough oil on hand, and wound up making a mess for themselves because they had to go to the market to buy some oil. By the time they were ready, it was too late for them and they were excluded from attending the wedding.

So.... no. I'm not convinced that you have provided the sufficient information to show that Jesus won't come for his bride and take her away to get married.
Here you go again, another "snide" remark when you said, "I stated that if you're convinced that you're right, then have fun with that." What do you mean by "have fun with that." You think this somehow "fun?" You also closed with this remark, "So.... no. I'm not convinced that you have provided the sufficient information to show that Jesus won't come for his bride and take her away to get married."

First of all I only gave two Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians chapter 1. I also ask you a simple question from Hebrews 9:28 which you did not answer or address. I also stated I have more information on this subject besides the chapters I mentioned. I want to also say that my mentor was the late Dr. Walter Martin, he is who I learned from starting back in January of1970 when I got back from Vietnam until his death on June 26, 1989. I even attended his funeral.

He had a debate with Chuck Smith on the when the tribulation will take place and if there is a rapture of the church. Martin was a post-tribber and of course Chuck Smith was pre-tribber. It was a very cordial debate and that laughed about certain things. Martin said, "I sure hope your right about the rapture, I don't want to meet the anti-christ because I'm high on the list." They laughed again and Smith said when we meet in the air I'm going to say, "I told you so."

I am not being "adamant" that I'm right, maybe I am, and maybe I'm not. In fact we could both be wrong. So let's keep this conversation on a level where questions are raised and people do their own homework and come to their own conclusions as the Spirit of God leads per Acts 17:11.

In Him,
herman
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It is not wrong to be poor. Is that what you think? Are you in the prosperity movement?

I still say Smyrna did not have anything wrong said about them.
🤦‍♂️
wow.... do you want to argue, just for the sake of arguing?
I never said there was anything wrong with being poor.
I simply stated they had a poverty-based mentality. Had Jesus not said--- but you are rich--- I never would've recognized it.

Nor did I say they had anything wrong with them.


Yes, that is why Paul commanded to not grieve or worse, quench the Holy Spirit. Love is a fruit of the Spirit.
Indeed!

We must continue to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh.
Yep!
Me too. But we have 7 years of watching the Antichrist and the other horsemen fulfill Scripture, then we can be sure that in 2029 it will NOT be a near miss. I hope you won't be too disillusioned to find you are still here during the GT.
Well, you go ahead.
I'm praying to "be accounted worthy to escape the things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
I suppose my question to you is---
Why would you actually want to stick around when Jesus is offering the way out?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Here you go again, another "snide" remark when you said, "I stated that if you're convinced that you're right, then have fun with that." What do you mean by "have fun with that." You think this somehow "fun?" You also closed with this remark, "So.... no. I'm not convinced that you have provided the sufficient information to show that Jesus won't come for his bride and take her away to get married."

First of all I only gave two Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians chapter 1. I also ask you a simple question from Hebrews 9:28 which you did not answer or address. I also stated I have more information on this subject besides the chapters I mentioned. I want to also say that my mentor was the late Dr. Walter Martin, he is who I learned from starting back in January of1970 when I got back from Vietnam until his death on June 26, 1989. I even attended his funeral.

He had a debate with Chuck Smith on the when the tribulation will take place and if there is a rapture of the church. Martin was a post-tribber and of course Chuck Smith was pre-tribber. It was a very cordial debate and that laughed about certain things. Martin said, "I sure hope your right about the rapture, I don't want to meet the anti-christ because I'm high on the list." They laughed again and Smith said when we meet in the air I'm going to say, "I told you so."

I am not being "adamant" that I'm right, maybe I am, and maybe I'm not. In fact we could both be wrong. So let's keep this conversation on a level where questions are raised and people do their own homework and come to their own conclusions as the Spirit of God leads per Acts 17:11.

In Him,
herman
Have a nice day Herman.
 

Timtofly

Member
Even Philadelphians are kept from the Tribulation, but they are true Christians who are alive an remain, just as the plagues hit Egypt and the children of Israel were "kept" safe.
Those coming out of Egypt were not the church. They were the Nation of Israel. Israel will be kept safe, but the "promised land" is not Paradise, but the physical reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. The church will be in Paradise. The church will remain in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE reality. The church has been given 2020 as an opportunity to change the world. What change was made has been made. The church is quickly running out of time to do much more. 2 Chronicles 7:12-16
 

Timtofly

Member
Ok. Let's do it this way.
What is the key event for the start of the tribulation period?

The bible actually tells us. So please tell me what that event is.
Those alive on earth, missed the event in heaven. Do you claim you were there? Tribulation has been nonstop since Pentecost. There has always been brief pauses, or periods in major tribulations.

When Christ appears at the 6th Seal, then those on earth will or should know the countdown. They will either read the Bible, but Christ and the 144K will be an open book. No one will have an excuse.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Those alive on earth, missed the event in heaven. Do you claim you were there? Tribulation has been nonstop since Pentecost. There has always been brief pauses, or periods in major tribulations.

When Christ appears at the 6th Seal, then those on earth will or should know the countdown. They will either read the Bible, but Christ and the 144K will be an open book. No one will have an excuse.
Ok, so you don't even know what the great tribulation period is?
That would explain your inability to answer my question.
thank you for taking the time.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Those coming out of Egypt were not the church. They were the Nation of Israel. Israel will be kept safe, but the "promised land" is not Paradise, but the physical reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. The church will be in Paradise. The church will remain in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE reality. The church has been given 2020 as an opportunity to change the world. What change was made has been made. The church is quickly running out of time to do much more. 2 Chronicles 7:12-16
The last seven years are for national Israel to come into the Church. There is not a Gentile church, and a Jewish Church. The first members of the Church were all Jews. Gentiles were grafted in until the unknown number of them has been fulfilled, and then the focus goes back to Israel.

But I certainly do believe the time is very, very short. I'm curious, Tim, do you think Covid-19 is the black horse? If so, who do you believe is the first horse (white), the Antichrist? I don't know world politics enough to know. I think I know who the false prophet is...
 
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