Is the expression "I am" some title?

[OldShepherd]

It seems that some people here like disqualifying adjectives ... or maybe they are chatbots programmed to disqualify other forum members who post information that they dislike. That's ugly!
What does the Scripture say about Jesus and Jehovah? It says:
1 Cor. 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.
It is obvious that when some people are obsessed with an idea and their attitude is arrogant and aggressive towards other people who want to help them, they cannot even see what Scripture calls EVIDENT.
Since my participation in this forum is not to feed trolls or to stimulate the aggressiveness of some "Christians", I am withdrawing until a more productive moment. Have a great day.

Proverbs 28:1
1 The wicked flee though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion.

 

[shnarkle]

Some even add adjectives to that fictitious title. "The Great I AM" they say. What is very great is the excess of imagination that they have.

I have thought a lot about the imagination believers have when they are impressed by an idea that seems great, but was just a figment of someone's imagination. Apparently the inventor of that supposed title intended to compare Jehovah God with his Son Jesus Christ assuming that the Bible calls them by a supposed same title.

It is not necessary to invent doctrines about titles to know that Jesus is a very important representative of Jehovah and that his Father has given him much power and authority. However, there are things that do not belong to Jesus and never will, because there are things that Jehovah does not share with any of his Sons, not even with his firstborn, and Jesus knows it.

Acts 1:7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."

While one needn't invent doctrines or title, the claim is so obvious people tend to mistake what he's pointing out, i.e. existence or being is an attribute of God, and Jesus sees that he has that same attribute as well; so much so that he identifies with it completely.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Is the expression "I am" some title?

NO.

That's what some say since someone came up with that idea. I do not know exactly who or when a person with a lot of imagination could have invented something like that ... but it is true that the ball has rolled a lot and has come to occupy a place in the imagination of many believers.

Is there a valid biblical reason to think that "I am" is some title?

People love their myths.

 

[johnny guitar]

Yes, God came up with this. Depending on the context in the NT this could be a title such as John 8:48.

Other passages like John 8:24 should have the word "He" after "I am" to show that Jesus is talking about being the Messiah IMO.

"God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”"

NO He in 8:24. Jesus said exactly what He intended. I AM. If you did NOT believe I AM God, you will die in your sins.

 

[Our Lord's God]

NO He in 8:24. Jesus said exactly what He intended. I AM. If you did NOT believe I AM God, you will die in your sins.

Except he didn't say that.

He said this:

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come. 21 Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “What I said to you at the beginning.


For those who have basic reading comprehension skills, Jesus' intention here is obvious.



Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world... unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

 

[johnny guitar]

Except he didn't say that.

He said this:

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come. 21 Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “What I said to you at the beginning.


For those who have basic reading comprehension skills, Jesus' intention here is obvious.



Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world... unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

Indeed, unless you believe I AM, you will die in your sins.
IF you knew ME, your would know my Father. IOW IF you knew ME, you would know God.

 

[shnarkle]

Indeed, unless you believe I AM, you will die in your sins.

it's an intriguing word play. It doesn't require belief to see that he exists, or that I exist. It takes a special kind of rebellion to disbelieve one's own eyes.

IF you knew ME, your would know my Father. IOW IF you knew ME, you would know God.

He isn't referring to objective knowledge. We know this due to the fact that there are plenty of people who know of his existence, and can readily identify him. He can only be referring to the knowledge of Christ within oneself, or rather Christ's knowledge of himself indwelling in others.

In other words, salvation is not an epistemic activity, but the ontological reality. It's even more intriguing to see the parallels between knowing and generating. The words in the Greek even look similar yet they have no common root. Yet another word play.

 

[johnny guitar]

it's an intriguing word play. It doesn't require belief to see that he exists, or that I exist. It takes a special kind of rebellion to disbelieve one's own eyes.

He isn't referring to objective knowledge. We know this due to the fact that there are plenty of people who know of his existence, and can readily identify him. He can only be referring to the knowledge of Christ within oneself, or rather Christ's knowledge of himself indwelling in others.

In other words, salvation is not an epistemic activity, but the ontological reality. It's even more intriguing to see the parallels between knowing and generating. The words in the Greek even look similar yet they have no common root. Yet another word play.

To KNOW The Son IS to KNOW God, which is what Jesus is saying.

 

[shnarkle]

To KNOW The Son IS to KNOW God, which is what Jesus is saying.

He is pointing out that the Father is in him, and that is how he knows the father. Likewise, only those who are in Christ can possibly know him or the father. One cannot be saved simply by objectively knowing Jesus.

Again, he isn't referring to an epistemic activity anymore than when Adam "knew' his wife.

 

[johnny guitar]

He is pointing out that the Father is in him, and that is how he knows the father. Likewise, only those who are in Christ can possibly know him or the father. One cannot be saved simply by objectively knowing Jesus.

Again, he isn't referring to an epistemic activity anymore than when Adam "knew' his wife.

The Father dwells in all believers. NONE can say what Jesus did.
To have a personal relationship with The Son IS to have a relationship with God because Jesus IS God.
NO other reason. The Son knows The Father because He is THE SON of The Father. Can't have a more intimate relationship than that.

 

[shnarkle]

The Father dwells in all believers.

Agreed.

NONE can say what Jesus did.

I have no idea what this means. You can call me NONE because I can say that Jesus walked on water. I can say that Jesus turned water into wine. I can say that Jesus prayed that this cup pass him by, but accepted it and was crucified, and died.

To have a personal relationship with The Son IS to have a relationship with God because Jesus IS God.

Paul doesn't conflate the two, but distinguishes them from each other. "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Cor.8:6

Paul makes a distinction between the father and the son, and between the origin and the means. If you think you can conflate God with Christ, then we can just as easily conflate the origin with the means and the father with the son.

This principle can be used for anything. We can conflate Henry Ford with the company he founded as well as the automobiles that were manufactured as well.

The Son knows The Father because He is THE SON of The Father.

You're contradicting yourself already. By your logic, the son is the father.

Can't have a more intimate relationship than that.

When one is the other, there is no relationship.

 

[johnny guitar]

Agreed.

I have no idea what this means. You can call me NONE because I can say that Jesus walked on water. I can say that Jesus turned water into wine. I can say that Jesus prayed that this cup pass him by, but accepted it and was crucified, and died.

Paul doesn't conflate the two, but distinguishes them from each other. "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Cor.8:6

Paul makes a distinction between the father and the son, and between the origin and the means. If you think you can conflate God with Christ, then we can just as easily conflate the origin with the means and the father with the son.

This principle can be used for anything. We can conflate Henry Ford with the company he founded as well as the automobiles that were manufactured as well.



You're contradicting yourself already. By your logic, the son is the father.

When one is the other, there is no relationship.

It means The Son ALONE can say if you KNOW me, you KNOW The Father.
NO one else can make such a claim.
The Bible always distinguishes between Father and Son, BOTH of whom are God.
Are you a denier of Christ's Deity????

 

[Our Lord's God]

It means The Son ALONE can say if you KNOW me, you KNOW The Father.
NO one else can make such a claim.
The Bible always distinguishes between Father and Son, BOTH of whom are God.
Are you a denier of Christ's Deity????

All sane men affirm that according to the Scriptures there is no God but one: Jesus Christ's God.

 

[shnarkle]

It means The Son ALONE can say if you KNOW me, you KNOW The Father.

And if he does say that you know him, then you can say that as well, no?

NO one else can make such a claim.

Why not? The bible seems to be filled with people referred to as "witnesses" who claim to have known Christ, and if that's true, then they automatically knew the father because to know Christ is to know the father.

The Bible always distinguishes between Father and Son, BOTH of whom are God.

Not according to what Paul says: Here it is again: "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Cor.8:6

Are you a denier of Christ's Deity????

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy of the Ad Hominem? Please kindly confine your comments to the content of my posts rather than me.

 

[OldShepherd]

...Not according to what Paul says: Here it is again: "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Cor.8:6 ...

Your Bible only has this one verse?
There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.​

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.​

[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.​

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1], and the world knew him not.​

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.​

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]​

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]​

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].​

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].​

Isa 6:1​

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?​

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence,with God, before the world was created.].​

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.​

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]​

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.​

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.​

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.​

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;​

​

[Character limit continued next post]​

 

[OldShepherd]

[Previous post continued]

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.​

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;​

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.​

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.​

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not something to be used to His advantage the being[present, active infinitive] equal with God:[The being equal to God was a then and there reality not something considered and declined.]​

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;​

[If Jesus is not God and savior in vs,1 He is not Lord and savior in vs. 11. Same grammatical construction]​

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]​

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];​

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.​

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:​

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].​

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.​

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].​

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].​

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]​

 

[OldShepherd]

Is the expression "I am" some title?
That's what some say since someone came up with that idea. I do not know exactly who or when a person with a lot of imagination could have invented something like that ... but it is true that the ball has rolled a lot and has come to occupy a place in the imagination of many believers.
Is there a valid biblical reason to think that "I am" is some title?

Yes, it is God's self declared name. See Exodus 3:14. Something about Jesus saying "I am," without a predicate, so enraged the Jews that they immediately tried to stone Him to death. Claiming to have lived before Abraham was not a stoning offence.

Origen Against Celsus. Book VIII. Chap. XII.
We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid. And we do not “reverence beyond measure one who has but lately appeared,” as though He did not exist before;3 for we believe Himself when He says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” (Joh_8:58) Again He says, “I am the truth;” (Joh_14:6) and surely none of us is so simple as to suppose that truth did not exist before the time when Christ appeared.4 We worship, therefore, the Father of truth, and the Son, who is the truth; and these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. So entirely are they one, that he who has seen the Son, “who is the brightness of God’s glory, and the express image of His person,” (Heb_1:3) has seen in Him who is the image, of God, God Himself.

A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity. Chap. XI.
Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. For in the manner that as man He is of Abraham, so also as God He is before Abraham himself. And in the same manner as He is as man the “Son of David,” (Mat_22:42 et seq.) so as God He is proclaimed David’s Lord. And in the same manner as He was made as man “under the law,” (Gal_4:4) so as God He is declared to be “Lord of the Sabbath.” (Luk_6:5) And in the same manner as He suffers, as man, the condemnation, so as God He is found to have all judgment of the quick and dead. And in the same manner as He is born as man subsequent to the world, so as God He is manifested to have been before the world. And in the same way as He was begotten as man of the seed of David, so also the world is said to have been ordained by Him as God. And in the same way as He was as man after many, so as God He was before all. And in the same manner as He was as man inferior to others, so as God He was greater than all. And in the same manner as He ascended as man into heaven, so as God He had first descended thence.​

 

[johnny guitar]

All sane men affirm that according to the Scriptures there is no God but one: Jesus Christ's God.

NO God but ONE: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. OUR God.

 

[johnny guitar]

And if he does say that you know him, then you can say that as well, no?

Why not? The bible seems to be filled with people referred to as "witnesses" who claim to have known Christ, and if that's true, then they automatically knew the father because to know Christ is to know the father.

Not according to what Paul says: Here it is again: "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Cor.8:6

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy of the Ad Hominem? Please kindly confine your comments to the content of my posts rather than me.

NO, I cannot say that as I am NOT The Son of God.
Yes, to KNOW Christ IS to know The Father.
Father and Son are distinct Persons throughout The N.T.
Do you believe in the Deity of Christ???Yes or No???I fail to see how this question can be construed as an Ad Hominem.

 

[shnarkle]

NO, I cannot say that as I am NOT The Son of God.

Sorry, but the way these posts are presented, I don't know what you're referring to here. You cannot say what?

Yes, to KNOW Christ IS to know The Father.
Father and Son are distinct Persons throughout The N.T.

Technically, the father is not a person at all. The definition of the word refutes your claim. The word "person" comes from the word "persona" which is defined as "a mask; what is presented to the world". Only Christ is presented to the world. Christ is the mask or persona of God which when removed reveals the father. God is not two faced, or three faced. There is no need to where a mask under a mask.

Do you believe in the Deity of Christ???Yes or No???

Repeating yourself doesn't advance the discussion in the slightest.

I fail to see how this question can be construed as an Ad Hominem.

That is overwhelmingly evident. Perhaps if you were to refer to the definition itself, you might notice that the fallacy refers to the fact that you are "addressing the man" rather than the content of their argument. To address the man is literally what Ad Hominem means.

I could believe the moon is made of green cheese, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to the validity of my arguments. It's a pointless question. Move on, or concede the fact that you have no way to address, much less refute what I've posted for your edification.