Is the Lord's prayer compatible with Calvinism?

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth? We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Thoughts?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth?

The Lord's prayer is not a confession of "what is".
The Lord's prayer is a prayer for what SHOULD BE.

We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Non-Calvinists have the exact same problem, so I'm not sure why you're asking the question.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth? We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Thoughts?

Good point ...
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
The Lord's prayer is not a confession of "what is".
The Lord's prayer is a prayer for what SHOULD BE.



Non-Calvinists have the exact same problem, so I'm not sure why you're asking the question.

Not speaking for the OP .......

But perhaps the whole thing is circular ...... just a tad.

can I be Lord .....

NO ......

Then what should I do?

Pray not to be.

But you said that before

So the Catholics were not?


Don't worry about that ..... just pray not to be.

Lord ......

Yes .....

Then how can I ever be?

errrrr ...... just believe and die.
 
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squirrelyguy

Well-known member
The Lord's prayer is not a confession of "what is".
The Lord's prayer is a prayer for what SHOULD BE.
I thought it was both? The following statements are confessions of fact, not petitions: "who art in heaven", "as it is in heaven", and "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever and ever."
Non-Calvinists have the exact same problem, so I'm not sure why you're asking the question.
This isn't a problem for me at all; I don't claim that everything that happens here on earth is necessarily the will of God.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth? We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Thoughts?
We have wills, they are just not free, like God. We pray to ask God that His will is done because we don't know His will.
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
I don't deny that.
Do you ever find yourself feeling a bit of cognitive dissonance when you try to use logic and reason on this forum to convince people of your beliefs, seeing as how their persuasion does not depend on the logical force of your arguments but on the arbitrary will of God?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Do you ever find yourself feeling a bit of cognitive dissonance when you try to use logic and reason on this forum to convince people of your beliefs, seeing as how their persuasion does not depend on the logical force of your arguments but on the arbitrary will of God?
I personally don't because the Bible commands us to make disciples. I know that God alone saves but He does use his instruments in order to carry out His will. I am not trying to convice anyone really, but rather just share the Gospel. God is the one who will convince.
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
I personally don't because the Bible commands us to make disciples. I know that God alone saves but He does use his instruments in order to carry out His will. I am not trying to convice anyone really, but rather just share the Gospel. God is the one who will convince.
But if that was your goal you could simply come on this forum and say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" over and over again. Wouldn't the arbitrary will of God cause the elect to believe based on that bare-bones gospel presentation?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Do you ever find yourself feeling a bit of cognitive dissonance when you try to use logic and reason on this forum to convince people of your beliefs, seeing as how their persuasion does not depend on the logical force of your arguments but on the arbitrary will of God?

Where is the "cognitive dissonance"?

Do you ever find making false accusations of "cognitive dissonance" causes people to change their minds and suddenly agree with you? Or does it do nothing but puff up your ego?

If there was "cognitive dissonance", then that would suggest some sort of "contradiction" that you think we're not seeing. So instead of the petty insults, why don't you try using your words and trying to explain what this imaginary "contradiction" is.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
But if that was your goal you could simply come on this forum and say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" over and over again.
That is not the Gospel though. I have shared false Gospels before(out of fear) but I don't anymore.

Wouldn't the arbitrary will of God cause the elect to believe based on that bare-bones gospel presentation?
No. You are assuming man has free will.

Would God determine that I present a false Gospel to someone and He saves them? I don't believe so.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
But that's what Paul said to the Philippian jailer when asked "What must I do to be saved?" If it was good enough for Paul, why isn't it good enough for you?
Good question. Here is the passage:

30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

I would argue that it is very important WHO Jesus is and WHAT He did. Verse 32 is important. I believe this is where the Gospel was shared. The jailer didn't just believe in some guy named Jesus. He knew who He was and what He accomplished. Does this make sense?

For example. The LDS Jesus is much different than my Jesus. Same with the Jehovah Witness Jesus and the Unitarian Jesus. Similarily, the Arminian Jesus is different than the Jesus I worship.

Hopefully you can admit that not everyone who "Believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved" in that context.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth? We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Thoughts?
This is why we speak of God's Decreetive Will and his Permissive Will, and the Distinction drawn between the two...

We can see the difference between the two in Jesus Christ himself. 'Father take this Cup from me; yet not my Will be done but your Will be done'. God's Decreetive Will was that Jesus drink from the Cup of the Wrath of God; and Christ's Permissive Will could have been to reject the Cup of Wrath. But certainly Jesus did pray the Model Prayer daily that the Will of God be done on earth as it is done in Heaven; but Jesus chugged the Cup down, and later he would spit out the Gall...
 
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squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Good question. Here is the passage:

30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

I would argue that it is very important WHO Jesus is and WHAT He did. Verse 32 is important. I believe this is where the Gospel was shared. The jailer didn't just believe in some guy named Jesus. He knew who He was and what He accomplished. Does this make sense?

For example. The LDS Jesus is much different than my Jesus. Same with the Jehovah Witness Jesus and the Unitarian Jesus. Similarily, the Arminian Jesus is different than the Jesus I worship.

Hopefully you can admit that not everyone who "Believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved" in that context.
I believe that words and names are imbued with meaning that is independent of what the person speaking them believes they mean. The classic example of this is when Isaac put his hands on Jacob and blessed him, thinking he was blessing Esau. Jacob received the blessing, regardless of who Isaac thought he was speaking to when he said "Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee." Isaac was thinking "thee" meant Esau, and "thy brethren" and "thy mother's sons" included Jacob. It didn't matter...his hands were on Jacob, therefore those words applied to him.

I believe that the names "Lord Jesus", "Jesus Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", and such titles refer specifically to Jesus as He is revealed in the Bible regardless of whether the person speaking the name has an accurate knowledge of Him. This includes Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, and others who hold to unorthodox views of Christ. "...that at the NAME of Jesus every knee shall bow..." (Phil. 2:10)

Keep in mind that there will be people at the judgment who have prophesied, cast out demons, and performed many miracles by using the name of Jesus...despite having never been known by Him. There is power in the NAME of Jesus.

Obviously we want to fully inform people of who Jesus Christ is and what He has done to give us salvation, but I would say this is done as the very first step in discipleship of new believers, rather than as an essential component of saving faith. The only fact about Jesus that I am certain a person needs to believe in order to be saved is that God raised Him from the dead; but seeing as how He lived 2000 years ago, anyone who calls out "Jesus please save me" must necessarily believe He is alive today, otherwise they wouldn't suppose He could hear them.
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
And you would be correct. Just as it is His will, as of now, I am a Calvinist. Are you okay with God being God?
Of course I am; but I suspect that you might not be as agreeable to the idea as you think you are. Is it possible for God to create a universe full of creatures that are endowed with free will?
 
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