Is the Lord's prayer compatible with Calvinism?

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Of course I am; but I suspect that you might not be as agreeable to the idea as you think you are. Is it possible for God to create a universe full of creatures that are endowed with free will?
Thats not really the question though is it? The question is did He?
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Thats not really the question though is it? The question is did He?
Well, seeing as how God is good, and yet evil somehow exists, I would argue that this is objective evidence of free will. Evil comes not from the sovereign will of God but from the wills of free agents working at cross-purposes with God.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
But the lost do not possess free wills. Neither do the saved, for that matter. You’re defending something that cannot be defended.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Well, seeing as how God is good, and yet evil somehow exists, I would argue that this is objective evidence of free will. Evil comes not from the sovereign will of God but from the wills of free agents working at cross-purposes with God.
I dont see what evil has to do with the existence of free will.

Objective evidence of free will? How can you be sure any choice you make you made freely?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
I dont see what evil has to do with free will.

Objective evidence of free will? How can you be sure any choice you make you made freely?
I believe it was Jonathan Edwards who said, (paraphrasing this, and maybe it was someone else?) “The will that is free, chooses nothing.”
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Objective evidence of free will? How can you be sure any choice you make you made freely?
The fact that I have the ability to choose evil at any moment is objective evidence that I have free will. God, being good, would not manipulate my mind to choose an evil course of action. But in fact I don't choose evil all of the time (though I do sometimes). And it was Jesus who said "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children..." demonstrating that evil men can sometimes choose to do good.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Of course I am; but I suspect that you might not be as agreeable to the idea as you think you are. Is it possible for God to create a universe full of creatures that are endowed with free will?

The funny thing is that heretics can't seem to rely on the Bible, so they have to resort to speculation and hypotheticals. That's how you can tell their beliefs are false.

You can also tell because they have to resort to questions instead of putting forth assertive arguments.
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
The funny thing is that heretics can't seem to rely on the Bible, so they have to resort to speculation and hypotheticals. That's how you can tell their beliefs are false.
Generally, yes. But some of them will build up a lot of Scripture references to support their arguments as well. Ever read a JW tract? They'll bury you in Scripture.
You can also tell because they have to resort to questions instead of putting forth assertive arguments.
I don't see how this distinguishes heretics at all. Part of becoming a knowledgeable student of the Bible (or of anything else) is just knowing how to ask good questions. People who have no questions, only answers, are people who are almost certainly overconfident in those answers.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Generally, yes. But some of them will build up a lot of Scripture references to support their arguments as well. Ever read a JW tract? They'll bury you in Scripture.

So you compare yourself to JW's.
Seems appropriate.

Just because someone quotes Scripture doesn't mean they're using it accurately. Just as Satan.

But no Scripture is just as bad.
It means no Scripture to support heretical ideas.

I don't see how this distinguishes heretics at all. Part of becoming a knowledgeable student of the Bible (or of anything else) is just knowing how to ask good questions.

Oh, okay?
You're taking the role of student, and not teacher?

People who only ask questions are those who want to put others on the defensive, and make sure they themselves never have to defend their beliefs, and to take control over the direction of the discussion.

People who have no questions, only answers, are people who are almost certainly overconfident in those answers.

Just because someone knows that asking questions is inappropriate to try to make an argument, doesn't mean they don't know how to ask questions.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth? We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Thoughts?
At first glance it might pose problems for Calvinist, but not at all. The answer lies right there in verse 10. I will provide the answer in a bit, dealing with a dislocated thumb, so please bear with me. Here's a hint, on earth as it is in heaven. See you guys in a bit. Peace!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
The fact that I have the ability to choose evil at any moment is objective evidence that I have free will. God, being good, would not manipulate my mind to choose an evil course of action. But in fact I don't choose evil all of the time (though I do sometimes). And it was Jesus who said "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children..." demonstrating that evil men can sometimes choose to do good.
I asked how do you know any choice you make you could have chosen otherwise?
 

Theophilos

Active member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth? We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Thoughts?
There also the line:
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Why would the elect need to ask for forgiveness?

How can forgiveness depend on choosing to forgive others?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
There also the line:
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Why would the elect need to ask for forgiveness?

I would agree that this question is incredibly silly.
The elect need to ask for forgiveness because they need forgiveness.

It's as ridiculous as asking, "Why do the elect need to breathe air?", or "Why do the elect need to eat food?"

Too many anti-Calvinists seem to work on the straw-man that being "elect" is some "alternate" way to avoid Biblical salvation. All that "elect" means is that God chooses those who will be saved, and go through the process of regeneration, faith, forgiveness, sanctification, etc.
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Theophilos said:
Does our forgiveness depend on whether we forgive others?

No. That would be confounding the grace with the law.
That can't possibly be a biblically correct answer to the dilemma, otherwise Christ Himself confounded grace with the law! "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6:14-15)
 

Theophilos

Active member
Are you saying our salvation depends on our forgiving others?
Is salvation possible without forgiveness?

Christ gave a stern warning in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:
. . . the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart. Matthew 18:32-35
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
"...on earth as it is in heaven."

Is it not true that every time the Calvinist prays the Lord's prayer they confess that God's will is not, in fact, being done here on earth? We don't have to pray that His will would be done in heaven; the Lord's prayer assumes that it is being done there, so we don't pray for it. We do pray that it would be done here, therefore, to some extent God's will is not being done here on earth.

Thoughts?
So you are a Arminian, (sorry about that), anyway if you believe in Total Depravity, because sinner do not possess the intellect, affections, and will to understand anything Spiritual about God. Then how are these sinner saved, if not by the will of God?
 
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