Is the Sacrifice of the Mass Performance in the RCC, the Same as the Sacrifice of the Cross?

mica

Well-known member
No, it's because it fits the worldview and way of seeing the faith. From a Protestant perspective the world and faith is very different than from a Catholic/Orthodox perspective. For example, do you believe material reality can be charged with God's miraculous power?
catholics hold a world view... as taught by the RCC.

a huge portion of those that catholics call protestants also have a world / faith perspective very different than that of a believer.
 

leonard03782

New member
That just parrots scripture - it doesn't understand it. If that's true that there is only one mediator between God and man: Jesus, that means nobody else can have a role in bringing someone closer to God, which is clearly false.
I do not think so. Try giving the Glory to GOD instead of giving it to man.
.
1 COR 3: 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor.
 

nan

Active member
A mediator for us, for the Church. However - and I want to stress this - priests aren't the only mediators. People praying for one another are mediators too, as are those who teach scripture, or those who spread the gospel, or those who bring ministries of healing or exorcism, etc. God is working through them all to bring about His good will and glory.

25 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

No one other than the Lord Jesus is a mediator between God and man.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Nan looked it up, I just questioned it - cause you never know when the RCC adds to, removes or changes things it 'believes' or teaches. or where it comes from. maybe the pope or a bishop had a nightmare and thought it was a message given to them by God. who knows ?

thx nan!
Oops...... thanks for the correction mica :)..... sorry Nan, thank you for looking it up (y):)
 

Nondenom40

Active member
But a mediator in what sense? Hebrews makes it clear: Jesus mediates the new covenant (Heb 9:15). This doesn't mean, therefore, that there are no roles within the new covenant through which people minister to others. Everything is mediated in some sense. Even scripture mediates as it comes between us and our knowledge of God's revelation, and those who teach us scripture and help us understand it better likewise mediate.

We're not denying that Jesus is the unique mediator of the covenant (being both God and man).
You'd have to offer explicit examples. Simply teaching scripture isn't mediating. Its teaching. Intercession isn't mediating, its interceding. Ministering to people isn't mediating either, its......ministering. See how that works? We can't just slap a term on something that doesn't apply because we want to use the word.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Not "continued", no. That would suggest that it extends in time. It doesn't. Jesus' sacrifice has happened once and for all. Rather, what the Mass does is gets in touch with that one sacrifice two thousand years ago and makes it real for us now.
No, actually Roman Catholics need to "get in touch" with God's Word, especially in the letter to the Hebrews, which gives very clear and detailed teaching on the nature of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus which happened once and for all. God's Word makes this "real for us now."
 

nan

Active member
Nan looked it up, I just questioned it - cause you never know when the RCC adds to, removes or changes things it 'believes' or teaches. or where it comes from. maybe the pope or a bishop had a nightmare and thought it was a message given to them by God. who knows ?

thx nan!
No problem, mica .. and I agree with you. They tell so many lies it's a wonder they can keep track.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Not "continued", no. That would suggest that it extends in time. It doesn't. Jesus' sacrifice has happened once and for all. Rather, what the Mass does is gets in touch with that one sacrifice two thousand years ago and makes it real for us now.
Perhaps Roman Catholics have not been educated enough to realize that in God's 'old system' the priests had to offer sacrifices continually over and over again because the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins but only cover them. And perhaps they haven't been taught or realized yet that with the coming of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, the old sacrificial system has been completely done away with, because it is the blood of Jesus only that takes away sin. Through His blood there is complete forgiveness of sins. On the other hand, maybe that is why the Roman Catholic Church continues with their useless and endless "bloodless" "Sacrifices of the Mass" is because they know that without blood there is no forgiveness of sins, and since they profess that their sacrifice is "unbloody" - they know that their mass without Christ's blood is really not forgiving sins, nor is the RCC even repeating the "same sacrifice" as the Cross of Christ, but they cunningly teach their followers to believe that it is.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
look at that... one offering. yet the RCC thinks (and teaches) there needs to be more than that ONE offering. God doesn't know what He's doing or talking about but the RCC does?

catholics better figure a way to have the pope or magisterium with them on judgment day too.
A multitude of scripture verses are found in the book of Hebrews alone, teaching over and over again that the sacrifice of Christ is a "once for all sacrifice" that is never to be repeated. How hard is it for Roman Catholics to comprehend that Christ's sacrifice was once for all? It's can't be repeated, plain and simple because Jesus can never die again. His sacrifice is complete. All sacrifices have come to an end - despite the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Their mass doesn't perfect like Jesus' true sacrifice does. Thats why they can eat it a 1000 times and they still aren't perfect.

Heb 10:12-14
2 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. NASB
Isn't it curious how there is a more than obvious contradiction between the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church and the teaching of the Holy Scriptures? The Bible doesn't teach that Christ's sacrifice must be repeated again and again, but the RCC teaches that it must. The Bible doesn't teach that Christ's one time offering is not sufficient to cleanse from all sin, but the RCC trains their followers to believe such. The Bible also does not teach that repeated sacrifices in the Mass are necessary for salvation, but the RCC indoctinates their already blinded flock with it.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
That is true, there is zero in common between the two.
Case in point: Throughout the NT, God's Word tells us that there is but one sacrifice for all sins for all time - just one non-repeatable sacrifice.
The Roman Catholic Church of men, on the other hand, teach that Jesus is to be sacrificed daily and that sacrifice is to be repeated often.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Sure, because it re-presents Jesus's sacrifice on a cross in a substantial (that is, physically and spiritually present) way.
Totally untrue! Having died once, Jesus is NEVER to die again. But the RCC performs a ritual in which they say that Jesus Christ re-sacrifices Himself on the Cross and dies. Therefore, in this ritualistic performance by the RCC, Jesus must die repeatedly or it isn't a "true sacrifice." If Jesus didn't die again in this "re-produced" sacrifice, then it wasn't a sacrifice at all - it is just another hoax perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
They blind their followers. Nothing is logical about catholicism. They lie right to your face, as you just demonstrated and smile and say 'believe me.' They could hold up an apple and say it's a coconut and they'd believe them.
Roman Catholics know that their priest doesn't shed any blood, and they believe that he forgives their sins, so they don't question why Christ does not shed His blood at their "unbloody" performance of the Sacrifice of the Mass which claims to forgive sins, but without blood.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Yes, and a propitiatory sacrifice where the risen Christ is eaten.
Yes, and, the Roman Catholics sins must be continually atoned for in the Mass. I don't think the RCC wants it's followers to know the truth, and teach them that sin has been put away and completely dealt with in the one sacrifice of Jesus.
The Sacrifice of the Mass contains no blood. As such, it cannot be the SAME as Calvary.

There are several reasons for this pagan sacrifice of the Mass, most notably their profound ignorance of scripture.
True, I think because of their ignorance of Scripture that they are convinced that the one sacrifice for sins is not a sufficient payment to God for forgiveness, having not been taught in the RCC that by one offering Jesus has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. RC's obviously must believe that many offerings are needed, therefore the insanely repetitious Sacrifice of the Mass must be continued. :confused:
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Yes, and a propitiatory sacrifice where the risen Christ is eaten.
Yes, and, the Roman Catholics sins must be continually atoned for in the Mass. I don't think the RCC wants it's followers to know the truth, and teach them that sin has been put away and completely dealt with in the one sacrifice of Jesus.
The Sacrifice of the Mass contains no blood. As such, it cannot be the SAME as Calvary.

There are several reasons for this pagan sacrifice of the Mass, most notably their profound ignorance of scripture.
True, I think because of their ignorance of Scripture that they are convinced that the one sacrifice for sins is not a sufficient payment to God for forgiveness, having not been taught in the RCC that by one offering Jesus has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. RC's obviously must believe that many offerings are needed, therefore the insanely repetitious Sacrifice of the Mass must be continued. :confused:
 

RayneBeau

Active member
According to Catholicism, Jesus didn't get the atonement right the first time and He needs their help.
I don't think Roman Catholics are tapped into the fact that the Lord Jesus could not have instituted the Mass because Scripture tells us that all sacrifices have now ceased with Christ's one perfect and complete sacrifice.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
look at that... one offering. yet the RCC thinks (and teaches) there needs to be more than that ONE offering. God doesn't know what He's doing or talking about but the RCC does?

catholics better figure a way to have the pope or magisterium with them on judgment day too.
Yah, I think Roman Catholics are going to do alot of squirming on Judgement Day. In all our years in this forum the Christians have pointed out over and over again to the RC's the basic principle of Bible interpretation which must be respectfully and carefully observed. Because the Bible is the Word of God, we know as born-again Christians that it cannot contradict itself - I doubt if RC's have that kind of knowledge and conviction though. Anyhow, the Word of God is truth, and therefore, if the interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture causes that passage to contradict the clear teaching of another passage, our interpretation is incorrect. Hopefully Roman Catholics will take heed.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
Their mass doesn't perfect like Jesus' true sacrifice does. Thats why they can eat it a 1000 times and they still aren't perfect.

Heb 10:12-14
2 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. NASB
Amen! The Letter to the Hebrews states over and over again that the sacrifice of Jesus was once for all and therefore cannot be repeated. For the RCC to interpret other Scriptures, such as the passages on the Last Supper, to mean that Christ was instituting a sacrament for the continuation of His sacrifice on the cross is to cause Scripture to contradict itself.
 

RayneBeau

Active member
The implication of her question is that if Jesus has fulfilled the role of our true high priest, then we have no more need of ministerial priests. However, why would that be the case when, under the old covenant, there was a high priest as well as ministerial priests. Jesus' high priestly role is perfect because of his own sacrificial offering (which is perfect) and ministerial priests (but also Christians in general) participate in that.
Jesus has fulfilled the role of our true high priest, and we have no more need of a ministerial priest because we are no longer under the old covenant. Christians are a "holy" consecrated priesthood. You surely should know that the priests under the OT were separated from among their brethren. They were so by their birth, and by their consecration. As sons of Aaron, they belonged to the priestly order. In like manner, all Christians, by their being born again, are set apart to the service of God. And as Aaron's sons were consecrated by the sprinkling of blood and the washing of water; so Christians have their conscience sprinkled by the blood of Him, "who, by the eternal Spirit, offered Himself a sacrifice to God without spot," and are purified "by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."
 
But jonathan I didn't ask what "Do this in remembrance of me" means, I asked if the performance put on by the RCC that they call the 'Sacrifice of the Mass' is the same as the Sacrifice of the Cross.
Well, the Mass is the re-presentation of Jesus' covenantal supper and death on the cross, which are united to one another. You can't separate the Last Supper from the cross, since the cross completes the covenant Jesus' establishes at that ritual meal.
 
Top