Jesus is the origin, the Creator of all that was created! He Himself creator, was not a created being!The Greek and it's grammar cannot prove any such thing.
For instance, many Greek hotshots on this forum will argue that the word "huparchon" in Philippians 2:6 translated "who exiting or who being", proves that Jesus pre existed eternally as God "form of God", but that Greek word has within its very meaning a beginning of existence.
It is even used 60 times in the NT and never once is it used to speak of anything existing eternally but only of things that had a beginning, whether it be possessions or properties or positions of authority, it always refers to things having a beginning in existence and never refers to anything that is eternal in nature.
It is also only used of God twice in the NT and in both cases it is used to speak of something that God began to be after he created the world and everything within it and here are those two passages below from Acts 17.
Acts 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.
Notice, God only began to exist "huparchon" as Lord of heaven and earth after he made the world and everything in it to be "huparchon" Lord over it.
Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Notice again, God only began to exist "huparchon" not far from any of us, after he first created us to exist "huparchon" not far from any of us first.
Is the Word of Faith movement biblical?
- Thread starter tdickensheets
- Start date
Jesus is the origin, the Creator of all that was created! He Himself creator, was not a created being!
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
No, but rather all things were created through Jesus and in Jesus and which doesn't mean that he had any hands on part in creating them either but only that they were created by God through Jesus in God's foreknowledge of him as the means by which the purpose for God creating them would be fulfilled through the cross and the resurrection.
For before God created anything, he knew in advance that his purpose for the creation would be spoiled by sin and therefore he pre determined for Jesus to be born through Mary in order to redeem and restore the creation back to God's purpose for creating it and that is all that it means and not that Jesus took a hands on part in creating any of it.
The word of the Father was was Him, and was Himself also God, and was the Creator of all things, and became incarnated as Jesus!
Think this entire thread reveals just how bad much of the theology being promoted here really is!
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Where did you get this idea that I was asking for any help from you anyhow lady, sounds kind of arrogant to me, for I don't?
Also, I will always believe the written word as it is endorsed by the Holy Spirit but it is your version of it that I will reject.
Furthermore, many on this forum including you apparently, think that they can understand the written scriptures by slowly reading them and digesting them, but there is no way to digest the written scripture without the second witness of the spoken rhema of God from the Holy Spirit.
For many slowly read them and attempt to digest them and still come up with many different doctrines contradicted what others did who also slowly read them and digested them also and that is because it isn't just a matter of slowly reading the scripture and supposing by this that you are digesting them, for they cannot be digested without second witness of the Holy Spirit giving true discernment for what they really mean.
Just read Paul's words in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3, for he tells us that the scriptures must be taught to us not by our own human wisdom but rather by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and he especially brings this to light in chapter 2:13-16 and then also in chapter 3:1-3.
We must have the third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, bring us his Illumination!
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Yes but saying it doesn't get it but actually doing it gets it and most say that they do it but when they pray their little token prayer "Oh Lord please guide me by your Holy Spirit, that is as far as they actually get with it,
The reason why, is because right after they pray this, they start trying to reason with what they are reading in the scriptures with their carnal minds and that blows it right there, for it is either the mind of God that was in Christ or it is our mind and our mind will not get it and neither will a compromise between our thinking on it and God's mind either. .
You cannot be trusting for God to reveal it through the Holy Spirit and at the same time be trying to figure it out with your carnal human intellect, for you will either do it by the Spirit and eventually get the truth from it or you will use your human intellect with your human exegesis and hermeneutics instead and a mixture doesn't work either.
The fact is, we need to keep our own thinking out of it altogether and wait upon God to reveal it unto us by his Spirit instead.
See bolded above and consider.
Then we are truly not mattering .... but to die.
Seems like Satan.
bd
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Not at all, for you have a will and the mind given to you by God was given so that when God speaks to you, you will be able to comprehend what he is saying.
That is the right purpose for your mind when it comes to the things of God and not to try to analyze his word with your carnal mind like the churches have been doing for so long now and which is why they are in so much division over what the scripture really teach as well.
Read Paul's words in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 and especially in chapter 2:13-16 and then picking back up in chapter 3:1-3, for Paul makes this very clear in those chapters.
Not sure about your references .....
Paul was not a proponent of the natural mind kind of guy.
bd
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
What Paul was naturally was put on the cross with Jesus and so that idea is way out in left field and by the way, how would you know what kind of guy Paul was, being you didn't know him anymore than any of us did or do.
Paul was also giving this instruction from God to every believer and so it isn't about what kind of guy he is or isn't it is about what God wanted him to reveal to us in his writings.
Here is what Paul said about who he was before and after he came to God through Christ.
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law that I might live unto God, 20 I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ lives within me 21 and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me, I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ has died in vain.
I am not really sure that I have the verse numbers in the right place for I have that text memorized and therefore the verse number might not be exactly in the right place and that is why.
Therefore whatever Paul was naturally, he was no longer living as after he was converted and just like any true conversion is also.
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Then the natural man is nothing .... but a conversion project?
You sure that is God? ,
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Ywi, this sentence is convoluted. I don't think it says what you mean to say. Can you rewrite it and make it clearer?
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
There is nothing convoluted about it but only in your mind CL, for it simply means that the direction of Paul's life was totally changed after he was converted but not that he was sinless or perfect yet and the proof of this is found in his own words below from Philippians 3.
Philippians 3
1 Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh (those who suppose that the can make themselves righteous by their flesh) . 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Following Paul’s Example
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.Romans 7 describes to us how hard it is to live for God as we ought even after being saved, as we cannot do that apart from relying upon the Holy Spiirt Himself now indwelling us!
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
And which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the subject that we are discussing either.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
The portion in red is about those who put their trust in knowledge of the law and their own willpower from their unborn again carnal nature. That is not enough. And Paul was no longer under the law, but under the Spirit. He was sinless, but not perfect. Now the blue. That means that as in Philippians 3:16 we can maintain sinlessness according to truth the Spirit has taught us in maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. But only when the fruit is grown to absolute maturity can we say we are perfect. Paul's accusation of Peter in itself was a case in point of not practicing what he preached, thus immature in love. The steps to that maturity are in 2 Peter 1:5-7, and the last to mature is love.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
ROFLOL, come on Lady, for if he was sinless, he would be perfect, and are you that ignorant that you can't see that?
LOL, the fruit of the Spirit is righteousness and the opposite of the fruit of the Spirit is sin, but you are going to believe whatever you want to anyhow because you obviously have a bone to pick with people only on the basis that they are not perfect yet and like you have convinced yourself that you are.
It is called "holier than thou" CL.
The perfection that Paul is speaking of here is perfect righteousness and therefore it is being without sin and Paul is speaking of attaining unto that righteousness where he will become perfect against sin but admits that he is not there yet, but you can't do that can you?
One cannot be without sin and not be perfect in righteousness, for righteousness is the opposite of sin and when someone is without sin, they would be perfectly righteous because of it.
You don't want to accept this because you are in darkness about your sin and cannot see it within yourself and therefore neither are you able to agree with the scriptures on it and that will be your complete undoing also if you don't come to the truth about it and repent of it.
What you are not paying attention to therefore, is that Paul is speaking of God's righteousness not by the law but the righteousness that is from God himself through faith and then Paul very clearly says this, "not as though I have already attainted unto it or have been made perfect".
Here look at it again.
Philippians 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss [c]in view of the surpassing value of [d]knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, [e]for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them mere rubbish, so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and [f]the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 if somehow I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already [g]grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that [h]for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore, all who are [i]mature, let’s have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that to you as well; 16 however, let’s keep [j]living by that same standard to which we have attained.
Notice, Paul is speaking of the resurrection power as it relates to sin within us and God's resurrection power to over come sin unto righteousness and Paul very clearly reveals that he has not arrived at this full resurrection power over sin to become perfect yet.
Rather, he is pressing ahead towards that end and the end that will only be fully realized when Christ returns and we are changed and raptured into heaven.
The difference between what Paul is saying and what you are saying, is that Paul knows that it is not him or any effort that he makes that will bring him to this perfection but rather it will be God's doing alone but that in the mean time, he presses on in trusting in God for that day when he will become totally free from sin.
Therefore Paul is very clearly revealing that he still hasn't become perfect and free from sin but only that he keeps pressing forwards unto that goal and this couldn't be made any clearer for you either CL.
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CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Once you are cleansed of all unrighteousness, at that point you are sinless, are you not? But are you mature? I'll read the rest of your post tomorrow. I'll just give you a chance to think about this in light of my answer.